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Judging of a non-certified car

  • JIM.OBRIEN
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06 Aug 2021 02:02 #43644 by JIM.OBRIEN
Replied by JIM.OBRIEN on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Hi Jack,
It’s good to hear from you as you are always thought provoking. The certification program was started in 1982 to support the Club’s mission of “…to preserve and maintain an accurate source of technical and historical information on these three automobiles…” (Bylaws Article 1).

Everyone need to understand that Certification and Judging are two separate functions that are totally independent of each other. Yes at one time there were discussions that only certified cars should be allowed to be judged, it was quickly pointed out that this would not work and was dropped. Any discussions Certification or Judging should be independent of each other and not tied together. In parts of your post I was having trouble figuring out if you were talking about certification or judging.

Over the years the certification and judging programs have evolved, just like everything else. Over the years the people involved in both programs have worked are to keep the rules and procedures up to date and transparent to all. Above all we have worked to maintain and improve the integrity of both functions. With both programs there will always be gray areas that need to be addressed on an individual basis withing the guidelines of their respective system as well as the By-Laws of the Club.

For anyone interested I would suggest reading a series of articles I wrote in the Newsletter a few years ago on Certification including what is Certification, how it works, the criteria that has to be met, etc.

I believe the Judging rules are in the latest Club Directory as well as on the website (I may be wrong as I haven’t looked at them in a while.)

I Hope to see you in Auburn in a few weeks and we can continue this discussion.

Jim

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  • Jonathan Richards
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10 Aug 2021 04:09 #43665 by Jonathan Richards
Replied by Jonathan Richards on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Gentlemen, it seems that this discussion about the certification and judging processes has been on-going for a long time. I don't read that anyone is 'assigned' to really come up with a solution; it seems discussion simply goes on without any sort of conclusion/resolution.

What pops into my mind immediately is a simple solution. Certainly certification by the ACD Club is important for a very long, sensible list of reasons and I highly admire and laud the existence of this program. But why is there not a simple solution such as two 'types', call them whatever you wish, A and B for now. Certification of type A would be specifically to reward/recognize/confirm ORIGINAL ACD cars which have matching numbers, proper bodies, engines, chasses, etc....cars that exhibit the normal, expected original parts, . Why couldn't there then also be a similar, if not identical, certification process with equal weight and recognition, of cars that are NOT totally original...for example what I have heard called 'made up' cars. Chassis of one, fenders of another, engine of one of those or yet another...etc...you get the idea. Numbers might not match, cars could be 80% "made up" or made up of parts of multiple cars. We all know of examples of this type of car. BUT I don't see why it couldn't be examined by the certification team, and certified to be whatever level of original ACD parts required, in conjunction with parts which were not original to that car. Then it would carry the same certification definition but type B that it would have earned as an original car, but it would be listed as for instance, "Certified by the ACD Club as a "whateveryoupickfor a name" or B category Cord 810 Beverly meeting all standards for non-original but authentic (or other chosen words) ACD automobiles.
I'm sure you get my drift, the wording would have to be chosen carefully to be correct jargon in the collector car hobby but then ALL people with ACD automobiles could be "certified" by the ACD Club for whatever purpose they desire, either Certified as an A car or B car... you fill in the names of A and B. Seems to me to be a totally logical, simple and useful system, then the Club could move on to solving some other age old conundrum, this one could go away! The certification team would be intact, definitions would be clearly stated and published and all would be well in the certification world.

THEN said A & B certified cars could certainly also enter the JUDGING at an ACD Club meet. That's another matter.... Did the dashboard appear correct and did the gauges all work properly? Judge the car for what it IS just like one does now. If I had a Cord 810 Beverly with some 'non original parts' but it looked like an 810 Bev, drove properly, etc. and was sound, I could have it judged for what it IS, just like if I had it judged with all its original, matching parts. In other words, is the quality of the car's condition (however those standards are set) up to speed and how does it rank with others of its same non-original condition? I would imagine that usually all original, A category cars, would win most of the judging, BUT you never know when someone will do a GREAT job of restoring a 'made up' B category car that everyone thinks is prize-worthy. OR have 2 categories here also, judge all A cars and all B cars separately and be done with it. Wouldn't this encourage more ACD car owners to participate in the meets, judging & certification process? Wouldn't they feel more included? More likely to be good club members? Sure, A cars are better, but can't B cars be swell too? Why not reward them, but in a separate category?

Food for thought - keep it simple guys! I'm curious what you who are involved in judging and certification think about a plan based on this general concept. And NO, these are my thoughts and ideas not dictated to me by my husband and fellow member Jack Richards. We were discussing the subject and I said "seems like a simple solution would be...." I've been a cargirl since I was very young, raised by a daddy Gentlemen, it seems that this discussion about the certification and judging processes has been on-going for a long time. I don't read that anyone is 'assigned' to really come up with a solution; it seems discussion simply goes on without any sort of conclusion/resolution.

What pops into my mind immediately is a simple solution. Certainly certification by the ACD Club is important for a very long, sensible list of reasons and I highly admire and laud the existence of this program. But why is there not a simple solution such as two 'types', call them whatever you wish, A and B for now. Certification of type A would be specifically to reward/recognize/confirm ORIGINAL ACD cars which have matching numbers, proper bodies, engines, chasses, etc....cars that exhibit the normal, expected original parts, . Why couldn't there then also be a similar, if not identical, certification process with equal weight and recognition, of cars that are NOT totally original...for example what I have heard called 'made up' cars. Chassis of one, fenders of another, engine of one of those or yet another...etc...you get the idea. Numbers might not match, cars could be 80% "made up" or made up of parts of multiple cars. We all know of examples of this type of car. BUT I don't see why it couldn't be examined by the certification team, and certified to be whatever level of original ACD parts required, in conjunction with parts which were not original to that car. Then it would carry the same certification definition but type B that it would have earned as an original car, but it would be listed as for instance, "Certified by the ACD Club as a "whateveryoupickfor a name" or B category Cord 810 Beverly meeting all standards for non-original but authentic (or other chosen words) ACD automobiles.

I'm sure you get my drift, the wording would have to be chosen carefully to be correct jargon in the collector car hobby but then ALL people with ACD automobiles could be "certified" by the ACD Club for whatever purpose they desire, either Certified as an A car or B car... you fill in the names of A and B. Seems to me to be a totally logical, simple and useful system, then the Club could move on to solving some other age old conundrum, this one could go away! The certification team would be intact, definitions would be clearly stated and published and all would be well in the certification world.
THEN said A & B certified cars could certainly also enter the JUDGING at an ACD Club meet. That's another matter.... Did the dashboard appear correct and did the gauges all work properly? Judge the car for what it IS just like one does now. If I had a Cord 810 Beverly with some 'non original parts' but it looked like an 810 Bev, drove properly, etc. and was sound, I could have it judged for what it IS, just like if I had it judged with all its original, matching parts. In other words, is the quality of the car's condition (however those standards are set) up to speed and how does it rank with others of its same non-original condition? I would imagine that usually all original, A category cars, would win most of the judging, BUT you never know when someone will do a GREAT job of restoring a 'made up' B category car that everyone thinks is prize-worthy. OR have 2 categories here also, judge all A cars and all B cars separately and be done with it. Wouldn't this encourage more ACD car owners to participate in the meets, judging & certification process? Wouldn't they feel more included? More likely to be good club members? Sure, A cars are better, but can't B cars be swell too? Why not reward them, but in a separate category?

Food for thought - keep it simple guys! I'm curious what you who are involved in judging and certification think about a plan based on this general concept. And NO, these are my thoughts and ideas not dictated to me by my husband and fellow member Jack Richards. We were discussing the subject and I said "seems like a simple solution would be...." I've been a cargirl since I was very young, raised by a daddy Gentlemen, it seems that this discussion about the certification and judging processes has been on-going for a long time. I don't read that anyone is 'assigned' to really come up with a solution; it seems discussion simply goes on without any sort of conclusion/resolution.

What pops into my mind immediately is a simple solution. Certainly certification by the ACD Club is important for a very long, sensible list of reasons and I highly admire and laud the existence of this program. But why is there not a simple solution such as two 'types', call them whatever you wish, A and B for now. Certification of type A would be specifically to reward/recognize/confirm ORIGINAL ACD cars which have matching numbers, proper bodies, engines, chasses, etc....cars that exhibit the normal, expected original parts, . Why couldn't there then also be a similar, if not identical, certification process with equal weight and recognition, of cars that are NOT totally original...for example what I have heard called 'made up' cars. Chassis of one, fenders of another, engine of one of those or yet another...etc...you get the idea. Numbers might not match, cars could be 80% "made up" or made up of parts of multiple cars. We all know of examples of this type of car. BUT I don't see why it couldn't be examined by the certification team, and certified to be whatever level of original ACD parts required, in conjunction with parts which were not original to that car. Then it would carry the same certification definition but type B that it would have earned as an original car, but it would be listed as for instance, "Certified by the ACD Club as a "whateveryoupickfor a name" or B category Cord 810 Beverly meeting all standards for non-original but authentic (or other chosen words) ACD automobiles.

I'm sure you get my drift, the wording would have to be chosen carefully to be correct jargon in the collector car hobby but then ALL people with ACD automobiles could be "certified" by the ACD Club for whatever purpose they desire, either Certified as an A car or B car... you fill in the names of A and B. Seems to me to be a totally logical, simple and useful system, then the Club could move on to solving some other age old conundrum, this one could go away! The certification team would be intact, definitions would be clearly stated and published and all would be well in the certification world.

THEN said A & B certified cars could certainly also enter the JUDGING at an ACD Club meet. That's another matter.... Did the dashboard appear correct and did the gauges all work properly? Judge the car for what it IS just like one does now. If I had a Cord 810 Beverly with some 'non original parts' but it looked like an 810 Bev, drove properly, etc. and was sound, I could have it judged for what it IS, just like if I had it judged with all its original, matching parts. In other words, is the quality of the car's condition (however those standards are set) up to speed and how does it rank with others of its same non-original condition? I would imagine that usually all original, A category cars, would win most of the judging, BUT you never know when someone will do a GREAT job of restoring a 'made up' B category car that everyone thinks is prize-worthy. OR have 2 categories here also, judge all A cars and all B cars separately and be done with it. Wouldn't this encourage more ACD car owners to participate in the meets, judging & certification process? Wouldn't they feel more included? More likely to be good club members? Sure, A cars are better, but can't B cars be swell too? Why not reward them, but in a separate category?

Food for thought - keep it simple guys! I'm curious what you who are involved in judging and certification think about a plan based on this general concept. And NO, these are my thoughts and ideas not dictated to me by my husband and fellow member Jack Richards. We were discussing the subject and I said "seems like a simple solution would be...." I've been a cargirl since I was very young, raised by a daddy who was zipping around in sports cars when I was very young...don't get me started. Leslie Richards, Chesterfield, Missouri.

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10 Aug 2021 15:32 - 10 Aug 2021 21:10 #43668 by 1748 S
Replied by 1748 S on topic Judging of a non-certified car
I feel there is a clear distinction between a judged car and a certified car They are completely different "ideas" based on how things are done in our club. If a car was "made up" from many other cars but all the pieces were original to that particular type of car then its still a Cord if thats what a person is building back to original in appearance. But it MUST have at one time drove off the assembly line as it appears when finished. No taking a sedan and cutting it down into a convertible. Its still a sedan even if you "found" a convertible serial number tag. My sedan has the original serial number tag that even Randy Ema did not see in 2016 when he came to my home to look at my restoration. About 4 months ago I took both tags to Randys shop where he took pictures of them for the master book of Cords by Ron Irwin. My car will have plenty of "other Cord car parts" when I finish my restoration. But every part came from a Cord or from the spare parts left over after Auburn closed. I realize some members have some NOS parts. But very few of them are out there. I have some of them. I know a member that has a NOS dash instrument light switch. The cost is $500.00 but is that too much? Maybe. My information shows in around 1937 or 8 Auburn paid 19 cents for them and sold them for 95 cents. I have seen this written in the original Auburn parts ledgers. I may never have my Beverly sedan certified but if I do I realize the complex process that goes in to certifying a Cord.
Is there an easy answer to this... Nope.. But I'm comfortable waiting and watching how this sorts out.


Gary Parsons
Last edit: 10 Aug 2021 21:10 by 1748 S.

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10 Aug 2021 16:35 #43669 by Curt Schulze
Replied by Curt Schulze on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Me too Gary !

The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Be of Good Cheer
Curt

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  • JIM.OBRIEN
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10 Aug 2021 21:11 #43672 by JIM.OBRIEN
Replied by JIM.OBRIEN on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Hi Jack,
In theory your idea is simple and easy but in practical application it is impossible. The first reason is there is no way to determine what is a "numbers matching" car since there are no records on how the car left the factory. Second if someone determines a car is 80% or 90% "original" could mean the difference of tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars when the car comes up for sale, especally at an auction. This could leave the Club open to considerable liability.

Having different catagories in certification leads to the certification being miss represented. We learned this years ago and that is why we did away with the catagories. Either a car/owner is certified or it's not.

Also take into account the term "original" in the old car hobby, has taken on a new meaning in the last 10 years or so. As a result we no longer certify a car as an "original Auburn" it is certified as an "Auburn".

Over the last 25 plus years I have been involved in this discussion from all sides, incuding certification, judging, Board mamber and car owner. We have been around and around on these discussions and the systems we have now are a result of these discussions. While they may not be perfect they are working well. Most of the issues are because people have not read the information on judging or certification and have not kept up with the changes over the years.

Again I suggest everyone read the latest policy, procedures, rules for judging and certification.

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  • Terry Cockerell
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15 Aug 2021 07:11 - 15 Aug 2021 12:04 #43709 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Jim, I disagree with your statement ""The first reason is there is no way to determine what is a "numbers matching" car since there are no records on how the car left the factory"".
Jim you may not be aware of the Sales Ledger discovered by Jim Brockman back in 1969 that came from the Toronto ACD dealer O'Donnell Mackie?
It lists the 810 812 Cords they sold with Serial Numbers, Engine Numbers and Paint Colours, my Cord just happens to be one of them. The attached copies came from the Auburn Museum where the ledger resides.
A few years ago I advertised in the newsletter if anybody knew the whereabouts of the engine FB 582 but unfortunately did not receive any replies.
Perhaps there is other information out there on other cars?

T cockerell
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Last edit: 15 Aug 2021 12:04 by Terry Cockerell. Reason: Adding pictures and revising text
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