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Judging of a non-certified car

  • ilikescars
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29 Jul 2021 22:27 #43604 by ilikescars
Judging of a non-certified car was created by ilikescars
Back in 2011, Joel Givner stated in a post that non-certified cars can be judged. My question is: Can a non certified car receive a first place award?

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  • JIM.OBRIEN
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30 Jul 2021 01:23 #43608 by JIM.OBRIEN
Replied by JIM.OBRIEN on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Yes non-certified cars can be judged. There is no penalty for the car not being certified.

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  • mikespeed35
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30 Jul 2021 03:19 #43610 by mikespeed35
Replied by mikespeed35 on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Just want to clarify Jim's response. Noncertified cars can win anything, including Best of Show. Jim will correct me if I am wrong.
CORDiallyMike

Mike Huffman

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30 Jul 2021 18:51 #43617 by JIM.OBRIEN
Replied by JIM.OBRIEN on topic Judging of a non-certified car
You are correct Mike.

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30 Jul 2021 23:38 #43621 by Curt Schulze
Replied by Curt Schulze on topic Judging of a non-certified car
I can say that that green speedster took me six years to build. It was restored with the same exacting standards if not better, that my 36 s/c phaeton was that took best Auburn. There was a deduction of a certain amount of points which put it in 2nd place.

The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Be of Good Cheer
Curt

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04 Aug 2021 17:25 #43640 by Jonathan Richards
Replied by Jonathan Richards on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Mr. Certification Supervisor and all fellow ACD Club members:
This topic of certification and judging standards has come up repeatedly as we have developed and matured as an organization. As a longtime member I have the distinct impression that the troublesome issues have never been adequately addressed.
Over four years ago I penned a "Draft" post which I am appending below. I believe the points I have raised are still valid today. Can we perhaps come to an agreement as to how we can come to grips with this problem ??
The ACD Club website's JUDGING STANDARDS forum and CERTIFICATION TEAM thread is a good reason to establish reasoned and civil communication among all ACD Club members. The Certification Team thread was established by now former Certification Supervisor and then Chief Judge Brad Waken of OK on 4-21-2003. The thread has had contributors off and on but never, until now, has there been the voluminous activity which followed upon the post to the thread on 3-8-08 by member Brent Merrill. Jim O'Brien of PA [ P.N.P. 2000-2001] responded on 3-10-08 to the post of 3-8-08. At the time of these posts Brad Waken of OK was serving as Chief Judge and Paul J. Bryant of KS was ably serving as Certification Supervisor, a position he held from at least 1987 until his death. Upon Bryant's death the position was filled by Jim O'Brien, a position he holds to this day. The Certification Supervisor position was created by the By-Laws of the club adopted 1-14-1960 , cf. Article VIII Duties of Officers , Section 7. Certification Supervisor. These By-Laws were Revised March 2003 and are printed at pages 79 - 82 of the 2015-2016 Membership Directory. The 1960 By-Laws specifically described the Certification Supervisor duties and stated that "This person works directly under the Board of Directors and with a certification Review Group." The revised By-Laws of 2003 do not contain the specifics of Article VIII , Section 7 cited above. In fact the Certification Supervisor position is not contained in the revised By-Laws of 2003. At page 83 of the 2015-2016 Membership Directory appear "Job Descriptions", including Certification Supervisor but I do not believe this list is officially a part of the By-Laws. Perhaps the Board of Directors intended that it be so considered. I do not know. The important take-away for me in all of this is that in order to address the Certification issues a dialogue must be undertaken with the Board of Directors, the Certification Supervisor and the Certification Review Group. The entire discussion of "Certification" must initially be broad-based to include asking the question as to whether the process is productive and necessary to establishment of standards of "Restoration and Preservation" of ACD automobiles, which was the basis of the formation of the club by founder Harry Denhard in 1952. The world was much simpler 65 years ago but the basic rationale for the ACD Club remains the same. I happen to think that an ordered, equitable and transparent system of certifying the authenticity of ACD cars is very worthwhile, in order to preserve the remarkable engineering and stylistic history which they exemplify. While the Judging Rules are inextricably associated with Certification, the two areas of club activity and focus can at the same time be independent of one another. In spite of apparent earlier efforts to make Certification a condition precedent to entry of an automobile into the judging process for awards, it appears that we are not so structured at this time. As the saying goes "they are only original once", and we need to respect and value originality. Much can be learned from originality about the history of our Auburn , Cord and Duesenberg automobiles.

All of the above discussion brings me to one of the points recently made in posts to the Certification Team thread on 2-6-17 by member Curt Schultz of WI and Brent Merrill, are there in fact "Categories" in the certification procedures ? The only reference which I have been thus far able to find to "Category 1" and "Category 2" certification is contained in the 1987-1988 Membership Directory at pp. 112-113. There, under Judging Rules #4, it is stated [ " Auburn , Cord and Duesenberg automobiles may be eligible for judging and awards if the entry fulfills the following criteria. A. ENTRANT -the car must be entered by a current member of the ACD Club. B. ORIGIN - The car must have been manufactured by the Auburn Automobile Co. or the Duesenberg Co. before 1940. C. CHASSIS - The chassis must be of original origin , as defined above, and retain at least the original frame, engine, drive train and running gear. D. - BODY - Category No. 1 -- An original body built before 1940, either by the Auburn Automobile Co. or a subsidiary of (sic) by a custom body builder, originally for an Auburn, Cord or Duesenberg chassis. Category No. 2 -- Re-bodied -- in accordance with the minutes of the Board of Directors Meeting of September 4 , 1970, replica bodies will be accepted as original provided they are replicas of styles produced prior to 1938 and of original materials (wood and metal). All other cars must be appealed to the Judging Committee for classification." ]. Well, there you have it. This rule, assuming that it has not been rescinded or revoked by subsequent action by the Board of Directors, is the law of the land on the question/issue of judging categories. Note that there is no mention of certification categories, ONLY as to judging. The construction of Judging Rule #4 is amorphous and subject to appeal only to the Judging Committee. Note too that the category refers ONLY to the subject of bodies. The most recent statement of Judging Policy found at p.68 of the 2015-2016 Membership Directory makes no mention of judging " Categories".

The bottom line for this member is that we have a true can of worms. I realize that this message has been very long and disjointed, for which I apologize. This is a very complex area of organization, rule making and implementation. We have had 65 years since 1952, during which many dedicated and knowledgeable people have grappled with these problems presented. Tempers run high on issues of this kind, particularly when members have expended countless hours and funds on restoration and preservation of their automobile/s , but I am hopeful that the issues and conflicts can be resolved with a view toward uniformity, and equity of application, of carefully thought out rules and standards for both Certification and Judging. We owe this to our founders and all current and future members.

I stand ready to discuss dispassionately and objectively this entire issue and look forward to the response of officers and membership at large. Let us move forward together to make our club even better. Thank you, Jonathan ( Jack ) Richards , #1080 at Chesterfield, Missouri.
The following user(s) said Thank You: 1748 S

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