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Judging of a non-certified car

  • Jonathan Richards
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15 Aug 2021 16:12 #43710 by Jonathan Richards
Replied by Jonathan Richards on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Jim, please see above, you replied to Jack accidentally, the above post was by me, not Jack.

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  • Jonathan Richards
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15 Aug 2021 16:24 #43711 by Jonathan Richards
Replied by Jonathan Richards on topic Judging of a non-certified car
G'Day Terry, thanks for this; as long as I have known Jack I've heard the phrase "numbers matching" - a zillion times - so of course I have believed it to be a real thing. But semantics aside it seems odd to me that after all these years there is not an agreed-to way to "certify" an original car versus one which has been materially modified. The decades spent by well-known aficionados must be seen as some sort of recognizable authority and serve as a knowledge base especially with the help of factory records. Stay well down there! Leslie Richards, aka Jack's wife and ACD member.

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  • Terry Cockerell
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15 Aug 2021 22:39 - 16 Aug 2021 00:30 #43714 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Hi Leslie we are trying to keep safe in these trying times.
The ACD Club has been around for a long time with a lot of detailed information gathered by many members which is freely shared between them. I do have one issue with the current judging standards as they dismiss the possibility of cars being painted in special colours to special order at the Factory in Connersville. This is based upon the lack of specific documentation under the Auburn Automobile Company letter head.
In the past Gordon Buehrig had told members at numerous meets that special paint was available at extra cost. There is a document discovered by Rick Hulett in what remained of the Hupmobile Company files and parts in Auburn, that originated with the Philadelphia ACD agents Teefy Seltz which clearly lists special paint and trim at extra costs. Note the date on the sheet 3/2/36 which is at the start of sales. Trim variations I believe are accepted by the judging standards.
Reading the Engineering Changes for Cord 810 812 on page 36 is says,
Correction on Paint and Trim Combinations for 1937 Cords, dated 1/11/37
Top material listed on the Ivory Cab and Phaetons reads Black nad should be regular Light top material. When Black is used it will be special.
The use of the word "Special" was a nice surprise. From reading the available books it was obvious the Company would do everything required by customers to make sales in the tough times of the day. Special cars were built or modified to order. The hard topped coupes being the prime examples.
Auburns were offered in special paint and were being built in the same plant.
Folk law in Connersville talks of Cords being painted in special colours to special order. It probably was not a common occurrence due to the extra cost but to dismiss it seems to be a case of rewriting history. All of the available evidence points in the same direction and Gordon Buehrig's comments should not have been so easily disregarded. My car has always been grey which is the original colour so there is no issue there. The judging standards only accept standard paint colours, however they should accept the fact that cars could be ordered in special colours at extra cost.


T cockerell
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Last edit: 16 Aug 2021 00:30 by Terry Cockerell. Reason: Adding document and revising text.
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16 Aug 2021 00:45 #43715 by Curt Schulze
Replied by Curt Schulze on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Attached is some data on Auburns. Note, special paint could be ordered for $31

The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Be of Good Cheer
Curt
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  • JIM.OBRIEN
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16 Aug 2021 00:45 #43716 by JIM.OBRIEN
Replied by JIM.OBRIEN on topic Judging of a non-certified car
HI Terry, I will reply to your post even though haven't been actively involved in judging in a few years but I think this still holds true, if not I'm sure I will get corrected.

The basic judging standard is "as the car came from the factory". The standard colors and interiors are well known and there is allowences given for color variation - just look at all the cigarette cream cars out there. Yes you could order a car in any color you wanted if you were willing to pay the extra cost. If any of these cars show up for judging they will be accepted as long as there is some proof that the car came from the factory in that color. This is the same with any non-standard items.

Without the documentation you would be opening up for the cars to be painted any color under the rainbow and would not be preserving the originality of the cars. Cords were one of the first, if not the first, to color coordinate the interior and exterior of the cars. Along the same lines you would be opening it up to any other modifications, accessories, etc. the owner wanted to do to the car.

The Club has to set the standards for judging somewhere and it has been set "as the car came from the factory". For any non-standard colors, items, configuration it is up to the owner to submit proof to the judges that the car came from the factory that way. If they submit acceptible proof then then the non standard color (or whatever) will not be penalized.

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  • Terry Cockerell
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16 Aug 2021 02:34 #43717 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Hi Jim, thanks for your detailed reply. Having some documentation to go with a non standard colour makes sense.
Back in 2015, I attended the 810 812 Cord Tech Session in the Museum given by Mark Tomei which was very informative however he stated "Unlike Auburns Cords were only painted in standard colours". To which I politely interjected saying "I disagree with that statement from what I have read in Josh Malks books". The tempo went up a notch or two as Mark replied "No, No, No they were only available in standard colours. Cords were not painted in special colours to order". The quotations might not be exact, but are as I remember them. The funny thing was nobody else out of the twenty odd people who attended said anything.
To me it was literally rewriting the facts. I tried to sort things out via emails when I returned home to Australia but nothing doing. He stuck by his initial statements.
With your comments logic prevails.

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