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Geneva takes her time to start
- 1748 S
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Gary Parsons
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- JIM.OBRIEN
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I'm glad to hear Geneva is running well! Keep using her regularly and you should have many miles of enjoyable motoring.
Also good luck with your "new" Speedster!
Jim
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- Jonathan Richards
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So pleased for you that after an harsh winter you have "Geneva" on the road again. The items you attended to appear to have done the trick. She is a great S/C Beverly and will give you much enjoyment. If the standard dual points distributor works I would stick with that vs. Petronics , but then I am just an old traditionalist. Good motoring and best regards to Geneva from a former custodian in Missouri, Jonathan (Jack) Richards #1080.
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- RumRunner
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Thanks to everyone who chimed in to help. I finally fixed my starting problem and took Geneva out today for the first time in three months. She performed flawlessly. Easy quick cold start followed by a 20 minute drive, then stopped to buy some lottery tickets, and she started up hot no problem. Then on to Chik-Fil-A to grab a quick bite, and Geneva started right up again afterwards. So all seems good in the world.
So here's what I took care of:
- Rebuilt Fuel Pump
- New points from Hagens
- Points installed and synchronized by Jim Obrien (Thanks Jim!)
- New spark plugs
- New ignition coil (Bosch 6V model)
I also learned that I have excellent compression in every cylinder.
And if anyone is interested, I just purchased a Glenn Pray Auburn Boattail Speedster. I know it's a "2nd Generation", but probably as close as I'll ever get to owning a real one!
Thanks again to you all for your help!
-Michael
1937 Cord 812 Beverly S/C
Clarksville, MD
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- RumRunner
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I will likely replace the points AND get Pertronix to make me an electronic version (and maybe two!). Can't hurt. And Jim, perhaps I will take you up on your offer to set the synchronization - I'll PM you separately about that.
I've always wrestled with the "keep it original" vs. "make it safe and reliable", as often the two are at odds with other; not always, but often. I appreciate everyone's viewpoints.
And I had a wonderful chat with Mr. Peter Morgan in Montana - truly a wealth of Cord knowledge! He has rebuilt and restored many Cords, and seems to know just about everything about these wonderful automobiles. I'll definitely be calling him in the future.
Mr. Morgan did suggest that I test my compression to make certain all was good internally. I did, and got between 100-110 psi on all eight cylinders. Whew!
So again, thanks to all. I'll keep you updated as I make progress.
-Michael
1937 Cord 812 Beverly S/C
Clarksville, MD
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- JIM.OBRIEN
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I agree with Mike, if you are going to put a Pertronix system you better get two. They will fail and you will be stuck. I have heard of several of them failing.
The points are available from NAPA so it's not a big deal to change them. The gap spec in is the service bulletins. The big problem on duel point system is getting points synchronized. I've seen people do it but the best way is with a distributor machine. I have a distributor machine, if you want to send me your distributor I'll set the points for you and send it back. You can drop it right back in and the timing should be as it was.
The original system worked well. It just needs to be adjusted and cleaned once in a while. The one problem is after 80+ years someone may have screwed it up. Make sure you have the proper polarity on the coil (and the battery), the right size condenser, the correct spark plug wires, points, etc. If you have the wrong ones installed the system will work, but not as well as it should.
Jim
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- Curt Schulze
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The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Be of Good Cheer
Curt
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Keep it original.
The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Be of Good Cheer
Curt
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The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Be of Good Cheer
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- RumRunner
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Here's an update. Still need help.
- I ended up purchasing an electronic ignition module from Pertronix for a 6V positive ground car. I put in the base plate and module in the distributor, and then realized that the magnetic cam-shaft sleeve they sent didn't fit. And of course it didn't, because I ordered the wrong part!. So I called Pertronix only to find that they don't make a module for the Autolite IGH-4028 distributor (supercharged cords), only for the IGP-4006 (normally aspirated cars). But if I send them the distributor then they will make a custom module. A bit pricier, but not too bad. I may go this route. If I do, I'll ask on the forum if there are any other members that would want one, as it would be a special build for Pertronix and may as well make more than 1.
- So since the electronic ignition was the wrong part, I carefully cleaned the points (and they are a bit pitted) and reinstalled the points/plate in the distributor, along with a new condensor, new ignition coil, and new spark plugs. I cleaned the distributor rotor as well. I did all this without removing the distributor itself or changing the timing (I hope - I did remove the entire points plate assembly for cleaning).
- I tried starting the car again with similar results. When it did start, at idle it ran very roughly, and I could feel/hear the engine effort moving from the left side of the engine to the right, back and forth. With some gas it seemed to smooth out, but hard to tell as the RPM increased.
- So I pulled all the plugs to see if I was getting spark. Turns out I'm getting good spark on 4 of my plugs. In firing order I'm getting spark on the underlined cylinders: 1L, 3L, 3R, 2L, 2R, 1R, 4L, 4R. So basically 2 cylinders on one side followed by 2 on the other, explaining the strong left/right sound and feel at idle. Also explains why starting is hard.
- Given the firing order and the plugs I'm getting spark on, clearly one of the point sets isn't working, but I'm not certain which one. Any help here?[/l]
So clearly I need to replace my points, and then re-time, and probably need help doing so. I've never replaced points on any of my cars! Or is there something else I may be missing? If anyone has some instructions on how to replace the points and re-time, I'd love to see them. Or even better, how to replace the points and set the correct gap without the need to re-time! My plan is to order the dual point set from Hagen's Auto Parts and go to town. One burning question - how are the original points removed?
And should I send the entire distributor to Pertronix and have them make an electronic version to replace the points entirely? Any votes yes or no?
As always, I appreciate any help you all have to offer!
-Michael
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- RumRunner
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It's been a busy several weeks. I hope to call you this Friday or Saturday. Are there particular times that work better than others for a call?
-Michael
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I sent my leaking fuel pump to Then & Now Automotive in MA to get rebuilt. They received it on a Friday morning and shipped it back to me the following Monday! Quick! Parts, labor, and shipping was $115. To me that's a bargain. So last weekend I reinstalled the fuel pump. In getting the fuel pump out, I also found that my copper hardline for vacuum between the top of the supercharger and the transmission must have had a pretty good leak. I was able to push in / pull out the copper tube about about 3/16" with my hands. So when I reinstalled the fuel pump I took care of that as well.
Yesterday I tried starting Geneva for the first time since I had the problem that started this thread. The fuel pump and bowl were completely empty of fuel, so it took 2 cranking sessions each about 15 seconds to get fuel into the system and get her started. But she did start! Today, I tried starting again after Geneva had sat for about 24 hours. Previously it would have taken minutes of cranking - today she started IMMEDIATELY! Like press the clutch and start! Woo-hoo! So seems like I fixed that problem.
I also changed the engine oil today and topped off the transmission oil. And while I was changing the engine oil, I took the opportunity to replace the oil plug with a Fumoto Quick Release Oil Drain Plug to make future changes easier. In case anyone is wondering, at least on Geneva, the oil pan thread size is 3/4"-14 NPT. So the Fumoto part number is T-201.
And today I also replaced the rubber transmission vacuum hoses. The old were dry and cracking and I was worried one would just fail.
So for now, all is well. Thanks to all for your thoughts.
Edit - tried to fix photos. No idea why they aren't all working.
-Michael
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- RumRunner
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I took out the fuel pump and sent it to Then & Now Automotive to be rebuilt. Hoping to get it back and installed by the end of the month.
Now that it's out, is there anything else that folks typically address?
-Michael
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Contact:
Chris's Carb Shop 7718 N. Main St Dayton OH 45415 877-498-2272 or 937-890-0970 kits carbs [email protected]
The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Be of Good Cheer
Curt
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- RumRunner
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When I started Geneva last weekend, I noticed something I hadn't seen before. After running for a bit and shutting the engine off, I was looking in the engine bay and noticed a fuel leak at or near the fuel pump. It was hard to get a close look with the car on the ground, so I moved Geneva over to my lift and raised her up. Today, I asked my son the crank the engine while I watched the fuel pump. I noticed a few things. First, after a few seconds of cranking, fuel seems to seep (or even flow) out of the hole on the underside of the fuel pump (at least that's where I believe it's coming from), flow down the pump body, and drip off the two back screw heads. When the engine is running the fuel stops leaking (at least for about 10 minutes I had Geneva running while on the lift). When the engine is shut off if begins leaking again for a minute or two, then stops. I took a video of this and posted on YouTube ( Click here for link ). Also included a picture here to show the hole I'm talking about. Is this normal?
Thanks for any thoughts you might have. And Merry Christmas to all!
-Michael
1937 Cord 812 Beverly S/C
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- Terry Cockerell
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The electric fuel pump just speeded up the process. Maybe the valves in my fuel pump need replacing?
Another Cord out here needed excessive cranking to start it. One of the guys checked it out and found a loose wire at the ignition switch. After tightening ................ instant starting.
So the point is you will need further checking.
T cockerell
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- JIM.OBRIEN
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I'll put my 2 cents in. First the car didn't used to have this problem so what has changed? Has any work been done on it lately?
Second it doesn't sound like an empty fuel problem. If the fuel is draining out of the carb. it wouldn't take as long as you describe to get the fuel up to the carb and once you did the engine would fire up and run, not cut out several times.
It sounds like you need to tart looking for another problem. First I'd check the timing, Second the points. Then the electrical system. Do you have the proper voltage to the coil, are you getting a good strong spark to the spark plug, etc.
This one may take some digging but I don't think the problem is getting gas to the carb.
Good luck and let us know what you find.
Jim
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Curt
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The carb is empty and needs to be filled. Instead of an electric fuel pump, I have changed the fuel pump . Looks exactly the same but it has a hand "tickler" at the bottom so that you can manually pump fuel into the carb prior to cranking. Works perfect
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Thanks for your comments. And yes Jack, I only noticed this within the past 2 months. Originally she started up just fine. As for the electric fuel pump, certainly easy enough to add. Do most folks plumb the electric pump in-line prior to the mechanical pump, or is there usually some sort of bypass plumbed in? And any recommendations on an electric fuel pump?
-Michael
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- Terry Cockerell
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I had similar problems with my Cord so I fitted an electric fuel pump for priming the system. The pump is switched on for 10 to 15 seconds to prime the system then switched off before starting. It certainly made the difference.
The electric fuel pump is the low pressure type. I found that on steep hills the engine would start to falter so I then switched the pump back on which brought the engine back on song. Some guys have the electric pump running all the time but I only use it for priming and occasionally on steep hills and leave it running on the mechanical pump normally.
T cockerell
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- Jonathan Richards
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What you are reporting about starting problems with this Cord is totally alien to my experience during my period of custodianship of the machine. Even in an unheated Missouri garage in dead of winter I was able to start the engine with minimal cranking. Based on what you have described it is my opinion you may have a fuel flow problem. The carburetor on the engine at the time I owned the car was a conglomeration of the proper EE-25 Stromberg unit. The base casting was properly marked but the air horn , float chamber and choke parts were not totally correct. With the original cam driven fuel pump you would not have fuel pressure/flow to the carburetor except while starter cranking the engine. Though I am totally enamored with the Cord Models 810/812 I am basically just an amateur Model A Ford shade tree mechanic so take my comment with a grain of salt. Contact experts such as George Arakelian and Jim O'Brien to get reliable answers. Good luck with your trouble shooting.
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- RumRunner
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I was hoping to get some help on a small annoyance I have with my 812 S/C Beverly (Geneva). Whenever I haven't driven the car for a few days and then try to start her, it takes somewhere between 3 and 7 minutes of cranking to get her to start. This is usually accomplished by cranking for no more than 20 seconds at a time, wait 5-15 seconds, and repeat until she starts. During that time, the engine cranks strongly (new-ish optima 6V battery with tender - always fully charged). When it finally fires and the startix cuts out the engine dies quickly. Repeat that 1-5 times (fire, quit), and then finally she starts and runs well.
So, are there specific things to check that can help reduce the time it takes to start? Am I slowly losing fuel prime each time I turn off the engine? Fuel pump (still original)? And to be clear - she always starts eventually and runs smoothly afterwards.
Thanks for any suggestions you can offer.
-Michael
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