Super-charging an FB engine

Chris Summers wrote: One of my dream projects has always been to buy an inperfect 810 or 812 cabriolet (i.e. non-numbers-matching, assembled from parts) and make it into a Stranahan Coupe replica. I've always wanted to own that car and since I never will, the only solution is to build the car I would've ordered, given Robert Stranahan's funds and "pull," in 1937. If I had the money, I'd do it, and opinions of others wouldn't matter, because it's the car I want and my money. I wouldn't dare try to get the thing judged or certified; it's the car I want and that's what matters to me.

Chris,

Why don't you just buy Bob McEwan's coupe clone? Be easier and cheaper. And it IS possible. Glenn Pray bought all the ACD parts from Dallas Winslow for a $20 down payment.....


Emporator ... You have the right stuff! If you're not a Club Member, then it's time to join! If you are, then send an email to <a href="mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url] and we will get you upgraded right away.


OK, time to lock this thread. Time to start a new one guys.

I know you guys are well-meaning, but I'm going to point out, once more and at great feather-ruffling risk, the simple fact that someone can do with his or her car and his or her money what he or she wants.

One of my dream projects has always been to buy an inperfect 810 or 812 cabriolet (i.e. non-numbers-matching, assembled from parts) and make it into a Stranahan Coupe replica. I've always wanted to own that car and since I never will, the only solution is to build the car I would've ordered, given Robert Stranahan's funds and "pull," in 1937. If I had the money, I'd do it, and opinions of others wouldn't matter, because it's the car I want and my money. I wouldn't dare try to get the thing judged or certified; it's the car I want and that's what matters to me.

As a Club we have better things to be very concerned about right now than trying to legislate what our members can and can't do to cars. I realize this common-sense, fact-based approach is probably an unpopular opinion. Fair warning: I've grown rather accustomed to having those and will probably have a few more in the future. <!-- s:twisted: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_twisted.gif" alt=":twisted:" title="Twisted Evil" /><!-- s:twisted: -->

I encourage anyone interested in continuing this debate/discussion to go so in the Topics section, as Emporator's query has been answered to, I believe, his satisfaction.

Hello gents,

I feel it necessary to clear up what I fear has become quite the mis-guided tangent.

When I posed my original question, it was nothing more than idle curiosity. I don't have any intention of modifying my FB engine in any shape or manner. I was simply wondering what the end result would be of doing so. Don't get me wrong, I'd love a super-charged FC engine, but mine's an un-blown FB and shall remain as such. The Lycoming FB V-8 is such a wonderful creation as is; my utter lack of practical mechanical or engineering knowledge is enough in itself to keep me from taking to it with modifications.

I thoroughly agree with the tenets of originality and authenticity, which is a little odd given I'm a relatively young 31 years. If I had a dollar for every instance I've rebuked notions of "rodding" my Cord I'd be able to finance the purchase of a Duesenberg. My stern rebuffing of such suggestions is almost always met with perplexed looks - apparently taking to old cars with oxy torches and fat rear wheels is what young men are expected to do to vintage cars, rather than strictly adhering to original specifications. To say I get vexed at such suggestions is putting it mildly.

My '37 Westchester is currently under restoration, and prior to knowing it was a '37 Westchester I had toyed with the idea of fitting a '36 Beverly fixed armrest interior to it. That idea has been scrapped in keeping with authenticity. As well as keeping kosher with the interior, I intend to have other details, regardless of their insignificance, in keeping with '37 guidelines.

I hope I haven't ruffled anyone's feathers too much with this hornet's nest I seem to have kicked up.

You guys have touched on something very close to my heart. I'm a dyed in the wool purist, and heres my two bits. If we don't take responsibility to clean up our hobby, in a few generations nobody will be sure of anything concerning the authenticity of our cars. We can make up all kinds of excuses why it's ok to modify our cars as long as we do it with period correct parts, but what we are doing is deliberately muddling up the facts so that no one will ever be able to straighten them out, and it's all driven by money.

People justify chopping up perfectly good sedans to restore open cars only because open cars are worth so much more. Same story for supercharged cars. I've said it once and I'll say it again, the unsupercharged sedans are the purest form of what Gordon intended, and all else are the ideas of outsiders who thought they could improve on the original design.

Back in the early part of the last century, it was acceptable to complete dinosour skeletal mounts using parts of animals that weren't even related,( What the hell, it all came from the jurasic period anyway, right?). Is this starting to sound familiar? Whatever happened to doing it right, and with integrity, just because?

If people want creative freedom, it might be that they're in the wrong hobby. Maybe they should be putting together street rods, or maybe kit cars. If they're in it for the money, they need to be trading in the gold market.

When I restore my car, I plan to use every original part of the car that I can. I won't even substitute better parts if I can get them. when a car is restored in this fashion it has a patina that you cannot reproduce with new parts. I've seen cars restored to stunning condition, when in fact 90 percent of the original car was thrown in the trash and replaced with new or better parts. I plan to try to reproduce even the dull paint( if I can find a body man that can paint that bad).

I restored my vintage race car in this fashion and when I hear people talking about it, they don't know why they like it better than the other cars, but they just do. The car takes you back to the dusty race tracks of the forties, and makes you rember the men who gave their lives racing in them......... Mission acomplished.

nuff said
Curt

Brent, you put much passion and thought into your contributions. I respect that. But I must equally respectfully suggest that in my opinion, in agreement with Chris, the two issues -- certification and judging -- are not connected.

I believe that the certification process was intended to assure that those ACD cars so recognized were indeed what they claimed to be. (As Bill points out, the process is imperfect but keeps improving. )

Judging, on the other hand, as I understand it, is intended to render an opinion on how closely a given car's visible artifacts are congruent with those with which it left the factory in 1936 or 1937. Deviations, other than the few allowed for safety reasons, are punished by loss of points. No Cord 810, in the example that began this thread, left the factory with a supercharger or outside pipes. So, according to the chief judge, such a car loses points for the incorrect engine and more points for the incorrect exhaust. (Whether the deduction is sufficient to deter such customization is a different issue.)

My initial response was to Emporator?s query about supercharging an FB engine. My position is that it can be done, but shouldn?t. (Same for external exhaust pipes.) And if it is, the owner should expect to win no prizes. I believe that our club?s answer should be the same and that the judging points allocation should be examined to be sure that the punishment fits the crime.

End of sermon.

What does any of this have to do with the original question being asked here? I'm all for original specifications and correct portrayal of a car's history, but keep the Certification "discussion" in Topics where it belongs. The gentleman's question has been answered and, assuming he has a car and is considering this, he's free to do with his car what he wants. It's his car and his money.

If I had made some of these posts on the public forum, I would already have two BOD members asking why I'm inciting controversy. I guess I'm just special like that.

To worry about radial tires or some minor bolt on factory option change does not really change the original car IMHO. The overall preservation aspect is what should come to mind as important.

In the fifty's there were many cars with problems that were not easy to fix as the cars were built like Swiss timepieces. Solution? rear wheel drive. The craze was body modification, chopped tops, cut down doors, leaded seams etc, things that make you shiver in today's world.

This modern attention to detail is a wonderment at any ACD show, that these complicated vehicles are even running and roadworthy. Back to the customs, some were very good and well done changes that cars faster and much safer and modern. That is the threat to the remaining cars, as they are such good platforms for hot rods. The few remaining complete uncut body's, cars would be modified as street rods. Not to condemn the street rods as I like them as reliable transportation, who does not like air C and electric windows.

Another minor issue, being there are no new cars being scrapped the value of the existing parts is making restoration uneconomical. Will there be a time when a good complete car is worth more in scrap original parts than its retail value and build a hot-rod with the remaining body. You cant spend three hundred thousand to restore a forty thousand car. Questions remain as to how close to original show room condition is possible and that is the favored goal.

The original car that owns me has the original fingerprints on the original compass, the original brake pads and the original air in the tires, maybe the original oil in the drive unit.. It is so original I have to trailer it as it is to old to get a driver license.

It does have Hemi dreams in the future though. Or maybe a blower on the old FB with a heavy cam chain, outside pipes...

This should say it all:

An Organization for the Restoration and Preservation of Original AUBURN, CORD and DUESENBERG Automobiles.

If we can't stick to our guns, who will?

The current Cord I have is too far gone for my pocketbook to bring back. I knew that when I bought it. I bought it before I was an ACD Club member. I have nothing but respect for the guys who are so passionate about getting these cars right, so I do what I can to make it at least LOOK correct. Notice that I almost never open my hood. I am embarrassed for what's under there.

At least, I'm doing nothing that furthers the damage. I hope the next owner can afford to restore it correctly. The extra 40K I've put into it was for correct trim, not phony pipes. Pipes should not be added to my early 1936 810 Cabriolet.

You are correct in saying that a lot of cars in the past have slipped through some cracks in the certification process. Well, as you know, every time a car gets sold, it has to get re-certified. We have the opportunity at that time to fix some past errors, and we are doing that. Not all cars will be re-certified.

There are plenty of places that Emperator can go to get his answers, but this Club needs to show him how to make his car as correct as possible. Besides, it will be worth a lot more in the long run!

You guys have given me something to think about for an upcoming President's Corner.

Notice my Avatar. I'm standing next to one of my former correct cars. Pat Leahy fixed my wrecked 1937 Custom Beverly and got it back on the road. Now that's what this club is all about!

josh

i don't think your response is correct. i do not think that supercharging an FB car would be penalized in judging. read the judging rules.

the way i read them. all cord parts and you are fine. i do not see anything in those judging rules that says you can't put a supercharged engine in a non supercharged car.

quite the contrary.

in other areas of this forum the club has up for consideration the idea that a car must be certified to be judged.

but this won't save you here, because there are all kinds of cords that are certified with supercharged engines that did not come that way from the factory. so how will you take points off a guy who gets his car certified. and you are going to say what to him? the acd club certified the car with the unoriginal engine in it....and now you are going to deduct points off from him for that unoriginal engine.....good luck.

as you know from reading my other posts, i also do not agree with you about the body swaps. i see nothing wrong with switching bodies on an ACD car. with one proviso. the car that results in the end must at least be representative of one that came from the factory that way.

we can say this is the case if you take an 8 cyl speedster body and put it on a 12 chassis and frame, this car is definitely representative of a car that came from the factory in 1932 or 1933.

so why should it not be certfied and judged with no deduction. the car has an orginal body, frame and engine. all in the year they are supposed to be. this type of car should be fine.

the difference between this car and one that originally came from the factory is non existant except for the history of ownership.

and the cars are getting to the point in age where it is very very difficult for anyone to prove that his car came from the factory.

why? because almost all of the original owners are dead. sorry to say. and its only the original owner that really knows how the car came from the factory.

and we have no factory records so we cannot identify an original car from a non original one (except up here in Canada where we have the dealer records. here we can confirm with certaintly an original car).

many other clubs are not in our position. the lincoln club and the cadillac club all have their factory records.

if you cannot prove with certainty your ownership history of your ACD car prior to around 1960 when the cars were valueless and it was not worth changing bodies and engines, then you really will never know what you have, i am sorry to say.

but if you can prove all original auburn parts. like i can prove. and even better i can prove ownership history to new. than i see no reason not to allow the car to be judged and certified.

in time, this is where the club is going to have to go........if not this year, or the next 5 or 10. i can assure you eventually it will go there. as there is a real value to these cars that respresent exactly how the car came from the factory so that people can see what america was capable of back then.

HOWEVER. there is one point on which we agree. i cannot understand how the club can certify a 1936 FB cord that they clearly know was made into a 1936 FC supercharged cord. this car has been modified and never came from the factory that way.

ON this point we agree. it should not be possible to certify such a car as the car could never have come from the factory that way.

NOW. the next question. what about if a guy takes a 1936 FB cord and puts a 1937 FC engine in it and renumbers the car in reasonable sequence so that no one would ever know.

i am looking at a phaeton right now. the person who put the car together in the 80's has definitely confirmed to me that it began life as a 1936 FB car. he put a supercharged engine in it. he renumbered the car in the 1937 series. the frame number was ground off. the tag changed on the firewall. and voila. he created a 1937 supercharged phaeton.

SO....what do we think of this. the car really does look exactly like a 1937 supercharged phaeton.

should this car be certifiied. what do we think?

i couldl tell you what our certification team has done with this car.......but you can probably guess!!!!!

all i am saying here, and again we are probably in agreement JOSH, is that the club needs to rethink its certification rules. and then maybe adjust its judging rules if necessary.....as right now they are unfair in the way the cars are being treated.

and its not fair to the members who spend alot of money trying to make their cars as good and accurate representations as possible of the original cars.....

and the more we choose not to deal with this issue in an all encompassing way. the longer we let 36 supercharged cars be certified, the harder it will be to reverse that decison later.

there are going to have to be some tough decisions made here.

and we are going to have to consult all the members on their views very thoroughly.

but i do think we have a board that is up to this very important task if they put their collective minds to the problem.

ONE MORE THING.......

another good member in this chain has commented on why we have so many of these issues of body swaps, engine swaps etc. in this club......

well i can tell you why. the answers are easy. and there are two reasons.

firstly. the ACD corporations were the first to do it. was it not they who took their 1936 cords and renumbered them to be 1937 cords in 1937.

josh you would know best. about those first 1400 or so cars.

so this begs the question. if the Cord corporation saw fit to renumber their 36 cars. just change the tag on the cowl and ignore the serial number on the frame. they kind of started the mess.

so now when a club member does the same thing. its tough to find fault. and i would not want to be the board member who had to make the tough deciion on whether this shold be acceptable or not.

maybe. if its all done properly. just like the ACD company did. it should be allowed.....but still the car should have to have all ACD parts and least look the same....as others are suggesting here, for all intensive purposes, like a cord should like in that particular year.

now that is tricky because we know that those first 1400 cars from 1937 actually look like 1936 models with wood handles on the glove boxes etc etc.

but if we do agree this is ok. then the certification people DID make the right decision with the cord i am looking at....just that they need to be consistent, and make the same decision with my auburn....ha ha ha.

the second reason we have this problem is that these late models cars are really driveable. we do not have this same problem with the L29's.

because they are driveable, our club attracts members who like to drive em.....and this is great. but when you drive a 75 year old car all over the frigging place, alot of shit can happen. like blown engines. wheel shimmy. overheating. vapour lock. so our ingenious club members come up with all kinds of fixes. good ones. to keep em driving.

honestly i don't see why any of these little fixes to make a car drive better should be a deterant from judging. they in fact improve the safety of the cars. and all clubs allow some minor safety improvements like signals, seat belts ets. our club will just need to be a bit more liberal.

but a fellow who wants to drive his car and do a few of these mods. i do not think that he/she should be prevented from also showing his car and losing points just because he likes to drive his car and needs these mods.

so we have to be reasonable here and make a few exceptions. i guess the higher powers can decided how far to go and what would be reasonable.

but our certification and judging rules must recognize both the history of our own marque and is liberalness for switching numbers on cars, our lack of factory records availalbe to prove definitely what is what, and the driving nature of our members.......

my two cents.

brent

ps. before making a quick comment on whether you would have certified the "put together" 37 phaeton, consider this.......

the talented man who did the work on that cord put together a collection of original cord cars that were otherwise junk.....and had lay disassembled in two other club members garages for more than forty years. neither of whom were able to get the job done.

the car is today a beautiful example of the mark with all ACD parts.

its in another country, where we rarely see these kind of cars. and the people here just marvel over it.....

to make the economics work, naturally he chose to supercharge the car.

another cord saved......but according to JOSH and others above, a car that should be PENALIZED IN JUDGING (although apparently ok to certify)

i am not so sure? what about you. what do you think?

does it make any sense?

our club certifies the car.....and then our marque specialist suggests in this thread that he should get a big point deduction in judging.......

doesn't seem fair to me.

a little more thought is in order....on the right response to this kind of car.

Of course, and it works fine. (Neither easy nor cheap.) But in my opinion it amounts to "customization" and results in damage to an original classic.

Certainly you can do anything you like to your own car. But it will be penalized if it is ever entered in ACD judging.

So, umm, has anyone ever super-charged an FB engine? If so, what was the end result?

As non authentic as the radial tires look, there is no comparison on the ride and handling. Before they were available I would find myself in the next lane at 55mph. Try going on a 500 mile trip fighting the road all the way. Now at 70 mph with the radials I am not beat to death when I get there. Still use mechanical fuel pump,std ignition, stock joints and no GPS.
PS, The trailer queen has bias tires

Seems the pipes slipped my mind

I do agree with you but I just hate the look of radial tires.

No you don't. How many Cord customizers do you know who installed the blower without the blatant pipes? And there are many who have installed the pipes with no blower.

As for internal mods, I have no quarrel if they are invisible. Again, the issue is that neither radial tires nor insert rod bearings CHANGES THE ORIGINAL CAR TO A DIFFERENT [u:1euzuqj2]MODEL[/u:1euzuqj2] than the one that left the factory.

That's where I believe our club needs to take a stand.

Where I draw the line is on anything you can see. For example, I've used a modern clutch and pressure plate as well as steel rods in my Stutz but they are completely hidden. I have some friends that would consider both of those changes a crime.

To me, radial tires are a bigger faux paux then adding a supercharger. You have to at least open the hood to see the blower.

Interesting subject~
I agree with Josh.

It has always surprised me just how many body swaps &amp; reproduction open roadster &amp; tourister coachwork, supercharger upgrades, added external flex exhaust pipes, engine &amp; chassis swaps, and other major alterations that the Model "J" Duesenbergs , Cords, &amp; Auburns, have been subjected to over the years by their various owners throughout the decades.

Just how many Duesenberg "J" s are still sporting their original factory coachwork styles ?
I suspect only a very small percentage ?

I know of no other collector car that has been subjected to so many changes over the years as the Duesenberg model "J"s .

I have always been stunned that the ACD Club seems to have always overlooked these radical changes; and in some cases actually encouraged them ?
I could undertand, and accept, these alterations if only done on a rough barn find.
But~~~ doing these radical alterations on a perfectly fine original auto does not sit well with me.
Why make a fine auto something it actually was not originally?
Most other car clubs encourage originality ; and strongly discourage major alterations and add-on accessory mods.

If we are trying to preserve these fine autos for history , and future generations, they should not have been subjected to such radical alterations.

We should all try to encourage originality.

After-all~
They are NOT Hotrods &amp; Streetrods.
They are rare &amp; historic Classic rolling art.

Just my opinion~

Josh wrote:

"I think I got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning."

Perhaps, but you have my vote on this issue.

This may not be a popular response. But I think that the ACD Club needs to begin to take a stance on the issue of modifying original cars.

The simple answer to the question is that of course it can and has been done. The more complex issue is whether a club devoted to "the restoration and preservation of original Auburn, Cord and Duesenberg automobiles" should be facilitating it and encouraging in our own publications (print and online.)

Those who know my Cord 810 know that it has numerous modifications -- Richardson joints, Wohlwend wheels, radial tires, Bendix brakes, etc. All are intended to make it safer to drive long distances, which I do. I try to keep any modifications as low-visibility as possible. (For example, my Wohlwend wheels wear rare original 1936 hubcaps.) Still, these changes damage an original car. I know it, and do suffer pangs for it.

What they do not do is turn it into something it never was. The issue of Auburn Speedster bodies, real or fabricated, on chassis they were not originally delivered on has been discussed at length on this Forum. The equivalent for Cords 810 and 812 is the addition of external pipes or supercharger or both. I have previously commented on the "sent back to the factory" myth, so dear to the heart of auctioneers. I do not think we should encourage this customization (because that's what it is) any more than we should encourage body-switching on Auburn chassis.

Owners will do it, and it is their car, of course. But I do not think that we should supply blueprints and instructions. And we should vigorously downgrade judging point scores on cars so customized. Ask the Bugatti or Pierce-Arrow or Silver Ghost Clubs what they think of engine-switching and supercharger-adding.

I think I got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

I'm probably covering old ground here, but has anyone ever super-charged an FB engine? If so, what was the end result?