Documentation on custom 1936 Cord

josh

i tend to agree with you....

except that rather than just open this door, i think the whole certification policy of the club should be reviewed in its entirety in order to clarify the process and what cars will be considered certifiable so that all members have no confusion about what will be acceptable and what will not.

but i don't know about following the CCCA lead....ha ha.

the CCCA board got into alot of hot water on the Chrysler issue. they approved the mark without going through the classification committee and without posting the idea in their newsletter and allowing for member comment.

the debate got so heated that the classification committee chair, an excellent person i must say, ended up deciding to resign his post over the controversy, as sadly, he was losing many long time friends on both sides of the issue.

the board had to rescind their approval, rerun the whole process etc etc. and eventually reapproved the Town & Country for acceptance, but not without alot of controversy over the process.

the board was widely split on the decision and the club had to do alot of sole searching to determine where exactly it was headed when it opened up this little door......and let a 1948 production car into the fold.

its only a few years from 1948 to the 1950's. fortunately or not, our club won't have to worry about deciding whether to accept more modern cars.

but i think this issue about what is certifiable and what is not should be dealt with in a comprehensive way by the board.

i do appreciate there is an existing policy and some might say there is no need for change.

but as time passes the orginality of the cars seems to becoming more and more important. owners are looking to the clubs for assistance in this area. and with a finite number of cars and growing interest, the boundaries on what is acceptable are being pushed further.

in light of this, the policy needs to be reassessed every few years if only to ensure our club remains up to date with the needs of its members and the reality of the world we are in. this does not necessarily mean we need to change. we just need to ensure that nothing has changed that would require any change.....

the plan on what to accept and what not to accept should be published in the newsletter for comment. those comments should be taken into consideration. and then an updated club policy should be published by the board and reviewed every 5 to 7 years.

anyone deciding to get a car certified should be asked to sign off that they agree with the board policy prior to the certification taking place....so we protect our legal butt....unfortunately a necessary evil in this day and age.

and any cars that don't fit the updated policy but were previously certified under the old rules should be grandfathered and this fact should also be communicated to members and should also be acknowledged by those applying for certification, so that they can't use these old examples for any legal argument they might put forth as to why their car should be certified when these were grandfathered.

no doubt its a tricky area. but it needs to be dealt with.

i have provided my two cents as to what i think the certification policy should be elsewhere in this forum....but i am only one member and so my ideas don't carry much weight. they are just food for thought.

brent

West, I chose to stay prewar for fear of opening the door wider. (The Bauer Duesenberg was first bodied in 1940 and is certainly certified.) Perhaps Derham and the few remaining vestiges of the once-proud coachbuilder trade should be grandfathered in, as CCCA did with Chrysler Town & Countrys.

If you study the photos Brent posted, you will note that the rear portion of the top is original. Specifically, the top frame, canvas and the quarter windows. The middle 'header' is fastened to the top of the quarter windows the same as an other phaeton. In other words, the top is not fixed, it's still a phaeton. The outer windshield frames are original as well.

Even if it was not possible to document the thoroughbred of the glass and accessory top, would not the body and running gear be considered certifiable as there was no welding, cutting or lead modification?
The top and glass could have been obtained during the time frame of production.
The changes are bolt on, not changing any body panels.
Would incorrect year bolt on changes, hubcaps or heater body, drive upgrades, affect acceptance?
It could be argued the original key blank was not used.
Would the rules be bent for accessories like radial tires on original rims?

Josh
I agree with your opinion. However, because Derham was still in business well into the 1950s, it's very possible that it could have been done by Derham [i:2fgi5ffl]after[/i:2fgi5ffl] WWII. Would that put it in the same kettle of fish with Karl's Kustom Koach?

Seems to me the key here is the identity of the customizer and the year of the work.

I believe that a new body or customization done by a recognized coachbuilder makes a car certifiable. The Labourdette Auburn is an example. Many L-29s carried custom bodies. Some Duesenbergs had their original bodies modified by Bohman & Schwartz. If documentation can be found to show that this Cord was modified by Derham, then that's step one.

The second issue is stickier. If a car was modified during the factory era, or at least before WWII, I can see that as acceptable. If the exact same work was done by Karl's Kustom Koach in the 1960s, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Then it is no different than the Auburn with the Camaro roof, recently discussed.

The market will determine what this car's value is. But unless it meets the tests of "who" and "when" I do not believe that the ACD Club should lend its imprimatur to it.

jim

perhaps you mean to use the words "original" before the words "body style, chassis, engine and drivetrain".

but then again, many cars have been certified without original engines, even going so far i believe as to certify 1936 cars with supercharged engines, something you couldn't get from the factory....in 1936.

could you elaborate on your thoughts here?

this car has definitely had its top modified such that it no longer represents what an original car from the factory would have looked like.

are you suggesting that this car can be certified when it has a modified top/body from factory original.

yet my auburn 12 speedster, which has a correct original speedster body, correct 12 frame, correct 12 engine and correct 12 drivetrain (just from two different cars) was not certified by the board?

i didn't think the current policy would allow a car that has had its body, or top in this case, modified from original to be certified when no such car ever came from the factory. i think if this happened that it would be a change to the current policy, as far as it has been explained to me......

i was told non-factory bodies were only allowed on duesenbergs as they all came with custom bodies....but all other cars must have the body that came from the factory.

this would be opening up a new window.......wouldn't it?

right now, i don't think any body modification from factory specs is acceptable. once you allow some modification, where do you end with that thought?

let me know if the club plans to do this and i will bring my speedster back for another go at certification.....as my body has never been modified and is a factory original speedster body.

surely a car with a factory original body (identical for 8 and 12 speedsters), all of the parts of which did come from the factory, albeit switched from an 8 to a 12 frame, should be allowed to be certified before we start opening up the process to bodies/tops that have been modified from the factory specs.

thanks

brent

ps. personally i think the car should be eligible for certification, but if the board is going to apply their policies consistently to all members, i don't think this car would qualify under the current policies.

three pictures of the 1936 cord "derham" car in this discussion courtesy of the Jim Brockman collection elsewhere on this site.....

the car appears to be at an ACD meet in the cord 810/812 section.....

I can definately see the chauffer driving up to the country club...

But I'm having trouble picturing the elegant lady gracefully getting out of the back seat.

This car has been thru the auction circuit. I don't know of any documentation on the customization. I don't believe that Ron Irwin has any either.

That said, it definitely has the look of a custom body builder who has worked with classics. Derham is a good guess. Note how the flat windshield lends a formal look that goes beautifully with the deville top, landau irons and tiny rear window. You can almost see the chauffeur pulling up to the country club.

Great looking car! It appears to be a Phaeton with a custom top and windshield.

Black on black on black. One of my favorite colors!

Is it for sale?

I don't know if the car has been certified. It appears (I'm not making any commitment here) the car would qualify for certification because it still retains the body style, chassis, engine and drive train. Under history of changes it would be listed the top and windshield were modified by a custom coach builder.

Jim

Perhaps Brian Joseph has more information on this car. I recall seeing it in his shop many years ago, before it was restored. If not Brian, then Josh likely has some history on it.

CORDially, Mike

Has it been certified by the ACD club? How are postwar customizations by reputable shops viewed by the ACD certification committee? (theoretical question, as I don't know when this car was customized, either)
Thank you for your response.

Hi West,
I don't think this is a "sore subject" especially compared to some of the others that are posted on the site. I think it's always interested in seeing these cars.

This car is known around the club. The car was customized by Derham but I don't know when, if it wasn't when the car was new it was probably right after the war, but that's only a guess.

From the photos it looks like a very nice car. I can't tell from the photos but the rear section of the top looks like it's solid.

Maybe there's someone else out there who could provide some more info on this car.

Jim

Jim

Thanks for your response. That's what I'm thinking. With some 130 views on this topic without so much as a "neat car," the silence is deafening. Is this a sore subject that I've opened? If so, I apologize and will stop.

Knowing nothing of the history on this particular car, the legitimacy would depend on the originality. It is obviously custom, but was it factory custom or done in the 1950s?

How does the ACD Club view the legitimacy of this car?
www.thecofercollection.com/1936-Cord.html