Oil pressure by first engine start

I don't know a lot about this, Chrysler, Marmon, Reo, Peerless, Graham also used the T-series Schebler. Before the depth of the depression, the US had many carburetor makers, afterward only a few survived. I suspect that Auburn discontinued use of the Schebler carb beause the Schebler company went out of business or were failing, they are not listed as a carb supplier to any US car after 1932-33. Remember also that the downdraft carb very rapidly replaced updraft carbs in around 1932, so Auburn as other companies switched carb types. I don't know if Schebler made a downdraft carb, I think they offered one; but if not their product was made obsolete because of the tech change to downdraft carbs.

My 8-98A speedster has a Schebler updraft carb, and tho I've had a lot of trouble getting it to run right, I don't think any of it is caused by the carb design (a shop that didn't, I found out, check ignition or valve timing in seeking the cause of backfiring and low power, convinced me I was at the wrong shop, so am trying again). Certainly it has never flooded.

I always pre-lub my engines. I use a hand held oil can with a rubber hose tightened to the nozzle. The hose I attach to a line that would feed into an oil gallery in the block. I'll pump three or so quarts of oil into the engine. Then I put the rest of the oil in the engine. Without the plugs in the engine and having squirted oil in each cylinder, I crank the engine over to check that I have oil pressure. When I see I have oil pressure I put the plugs in and fire it up. I have never had an engine failure when doing it this way and the bearings, when I have taken the engine down, have always looked good.

The 31 Phaeton I had restored ran well with the original carb and fuel pump - and I see the car every year at ACD festival and it seems to be doing fine 25 years later. If you run an electric pump I am thinking 2.5 lbs of fuel pump pressure max, a good needle and seat, proper float level, and float has to actually float verses sink.

Thanks Pete, good to know. I ?ll give it a try. What about the fuel economy?

Andy: No problem, its the same topic and my problem is solved.
Go ahead.

I drove my 8-98 Auburn for 10 years with the original Schebler carb and the original Stewart Warner fuel pump. I never rebuilt the carb. On a couple occasions there was gas dripping from the carb during starting (too much choke).
Very happy with it.
Some people use a Carter BB1.
Pete

GIVNER wrote: Andy,

On a 12 cyl, there is no check valve between the oil filter and the sump, thus it is very difficult to get pressure once all the oil in the filter drains back to the sump. This problem is exhibited when the engine doesn't run for long periods of time. Remove the center bolt from the oil filter canister and fill with oil through the center bolt hole. Within 5 seconds of cranking, you will see oil pressure. This is based on over 50 years worth of Frank Cek experience. After each driving season for 7 years, I used this procedure after 7 winters with absolute positive results.

Thank you for this info! "could" an accumulator of sorts be fit into the 12's oil system? I love the idea/concept of 'pre-lubing' ANY engine.especially the older more expensive ones! the oil seems to leak back into the pan fairly fast(?)

Andreas- my apologies if I messed up your thread. I will gladly delete my posts if you are offended, that was never my intention. <!-- s:oops: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed" /><!-- s:oops: -->

tractiondk wrote: Hello Andreas.

If you can't solve the problems with the Shebler carb, then I can recommend Vergaser BOB
www.bobs-services.de/allgemein-en.html

He is a great guy, and a true specialist in carburators.

Torsten

Thanks Torsten. Because I am running a classic car workshop in Germany, I know Bob of course. Basically I am an carburator specialist too (even if not as much as Bob). I have lot of experience with the rebuilt and adjustment of all common post war carbs, incl. Zenith, Solex, Stromberg, SU, Weber, Dellorto, and so on.

I will do my very best to fix the problem with the Shebler carb. But I am afraid this carb could be a constant source of trouble in future. There must be a good reason why these carbs are that rare at driving cars.

I would love to hear from any Auburn owner, that he drives his car since a long time with this carb without any serious trouble?

Andreas

Andy,

On a 12 cyl, there is no check valve between the oil filter and the sump, thus it is very difficult to get pressure once all the oil in the filter drains back to the sump. This problem is exhibited when the engine doesn't run for long periods of time. Remove the center bolt from the oil filter canister and fill with oil through the center bolt hole. Within 5 seconds of cranking, you will see oil pressure. This is based on over 50 years worth of Frank Cek experience. After each driving season for 7 years, I used this procedure after 7 winters with absolute positive results.

Hello Andreas.

If you can't solve the problems with the Shebler carb, then I can recommend Vergaser BOB
www.bobs-services.de/allgemein-en.html

He is a great guy, and a true specialist in carburators.

Torsten

mikespeed35 wrote: One way to eleminate this problem is to prelub the engine with a pressure tank. Fill a clean tank of sufficiant size to hold several quarts of oil. Put air preasure in the tank on top of the oil and inject the oil in to a oil galley plug hole thus prelubing the bearings and filling the oil gallerys. When you start the engine the oil preasure will come up quicker.
CORDially Mike

Mike do you know for sure that this will work on a 12 cylinder? (not to muddy the OP's comments) when I installed an oil accumulator on my engine, since it does not have 'full flow' filtering it just dumped all of the oil into the pan. regardless of the pressure relief setting.
I plumbed into the filter housing base where the guage/sender goes.

andy

Thanks for all input. I tried Mikes suggestion and it works very well. We filled the oil line gallery with oil until the oil pressure instrument showed some pressure. Then we have cranked the engine over until enough pressure built up. Finally we made a first engine start up and oil pressure was very good.

Engine ran very smooth, but now starts the trouble with my "new" original Shebler TX carb, as I expected. The carb became flooded instantly and we shut off the engine.

Until last year I had a Carter carb, as most Driver-Auburns seems to be equipped with, and this worked without any problem. I think there is a reason why the Shebler TX carb was used only a very short time in 1931, and that most driver cars are no longer equipped with this carb. :rolleyes:

I will see....

Andreas

Hi Again Andreas,
The Auburn small eight has a well designed positive displacement gear type oil pump of ample capacity. The oil pump pressure is caused by the restriction to oil flow due to bearing clearance and the setting of the relief valve. I can assure you that on a new build with new bearings you will get oil pressure on cranking the motor with the spark plugs removed.

Also, I have really enjoyed watching your build progress, you are doing a very professional restoration.

One way to eleminate this problem is to prelub the engine with a pressure tank. Fill a clean tank of sufficiant size to hold several quarts of oil. Put air preasure in the tank on top of the oil and inject the oil in to a oil galley plug hole thus prelubing the bearings and filling the oil gallerys. When you start the engine the oil preasure will come up quicker.
CORDially Mike

when I was working on my 12 cylinder I tried the same thing. I could not get any pressure on the gauge <!-- s:shock: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif" alt=":shock:" title="Shocked" /><!-- s:shock: --> I pulled the timing cover off, and looked and looked at things. I even removed the pump, built a stand, and a bucket of oil to draw from. Using an electric drill and an adapter that I made I could spin the pump, and pump oil quite easily. ( <!-- s:x --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mad.gif" alt=":x" title="Mad" /><!-- s:x --> I was also able to make one hell of a mess!) reassembled it all and cranked the engine again with the starter. NO pressure! I could see oil seeping out past the cam bearings and rod bearings when I cranked it though.

Long story short- I do not think that these engines crank fast enough, and are not 'tight' enough to build any pressure while simply cranking them over.The pump DOES move oil and lubricate, but not at any "pressure" that we wish to see.
using my drill analogy, its' speed was MUCH higher than the distributor's rotating speed,much like the idle speed vs cranking.
my 2 cents

Hi Andreas,
With the correct amount of oil in the sump the oil pump is below sump oil level and is therefore self priming. After I built my earlier GT engine it took about 10 to 15 seconds for oil pressure to build up. Assuming all the distribution pipes in the sump are fitted correctly the only sugestion I have is to check that the oil pressure relief valve is working OK or not stuck open.

Hi all,

has anybody experience with the oil pump priming after a complete engine assembly?
Today we turned the engine with electric starter 2 or 3 minutes (without spark plugs). But no oil pressure built up. Probably the oil pump needs to be filled or primed for the first start? Unfortunatly I dont see any possibility for spinning the oil pump without turning the engine.

Any suggestions?

(I am talking about a GU engine from 1931)

Thanks
Andreas