Oil- Detergent or Non?

Seems to me that the ZDDP content of oils has dominated the discussion of motor oils for old cars to the virtual exclusion of everything else. That's what has gotten drivers into Valvoline, Brad Penn and other oils that were not formulated for the purpose of the longevity of our precious vehicles. I believe the CCCA oil to be a safe bet that will preserve the car, running or standing. That said, my Cord engine has run on Rotella T since it was rebuilt many years ago so I know it to be clean. In my opinion, given a properly rebuilt engine, catastrophic failure is unlikely no matter which oil you use. What may differ a bit between oils is the [i:3rh76ihk]longevity[/i:3rh76ihk] of the engine, and not all of us have sufficient years left to test that out.

Valvoline VR-1 is $4.68 QT. and Rotella T is $2.75 Qt. when I buy it on sale at $11.00 per gal. How much is the CCCA oil? The problem with CCCA is I can't buy it at NAPA or local discount store. Have to have it shipped?
CORDially Mike

Josh, I was sure I read the SAE of 1200ppm in technical # 770087. I can't find it now so I guess I'd disregard the SAE stating 1200 for flat tappet camshafts. I do know that around 850ppm is what is most standard oil is today. When I use cam-shield I raise the level to 1650ppm. Interesting info on the zddp attacking white metal on the cam bearings but I don't think we have to worry about that as long the engine has babbit bearings which are mostly lead/nickel. Shell Rotella worries me a little due to the very high content of detergents in all diesel oils. High detergents don't bother me on a cleaned out engine but the sludge that is in some these cars can make your head spin. The more I read about the CCCA oil the more I like the idea. Seems reasonably priced and a lot of the work is done for you. Probably the only thing reasonably priced from the CCCA. Opps, did I say that? This is an interesting thread.

Good for you, Mike. I was told by a third party that Rotella T had reduced their ZDDP content. Perhaps they did, but as a diesel motor oil it may have been even higher and is now [i:2efdyea4]down[/i:2efdyea4] to 1200 ppm.

For me, this is the way to go. Back to using straight Rotella T as I have for many years.

My previous post said 12000 ppm and it should have read 1200 ppm for Rotella T. I also called Valvoline about their VR-1 Racing Oil and it has 1400 ppm Zink. More is not necessarily better but at least I know how much Zink is in the oil unlike adding your own additive and not knowing.
CORDially Mike

<!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> I love it. I am busy in around 5 different collectotr car and motorcycle forums, and in every of these forum at least one time a year somebody starts up the OIl topic.

And even if this forum is just gonna dying, when the oil topic comes up - its back to live again... :rolleyes:

I believe there are as many oil solutions as there are collector cars.

Well, I change the oil in all of my cars and bikes once a year, in my Auburn I use a single grade SAE 40 Oil, especially designed for PreWarCars. I hope all needed additives are in there. And I do not race this car...

Best regards,

Andreas

I hate to disagree with Josh but I just got of the phone with Shell Tech. and they tell me Rotella T (SM) still has 12000 ppm of Zink as they did in 2000.
CORDially Mike

Your points are well taken, Brad. I covered just these points in my recent book "How To Keep Your Collector Car Alive".

Here's an extensive quote (not intended to bore):

" . . . accusations that uncaring oil companies are prepared to sacrifice our old cars on the twin altars of environmentalism and government-mandated mileage standards persist. Bob Olree, himself a collector car enthusiast, is the chair of the ILSAC/OIL Committee. In a 2004 SAE paper coauthored with Michael L. McMillan of General Motors Research and Development, Olree states that the test engines for the current oil designations are a Nissan 2.4-liter single overhead camshaft engine, and a General Motors 3.8-liter overhead valve engine. This latter engine has flat tappets. One of the tests, the Sequence IIIG test, is meant to simulate an overhead-valve engine with flat tappets in a truck pulling a load of cattle across a desert on a hot day. Current SM oils pass this test. Sounds good.

The authors of this paper also point out that SM oils contain about the same amount of ZDDP ? up to .08 per cent ? as the motor oils of the mid-1950s, and substantially more than the .03 percent included in the oils used in pre-World War II cars. High-load passenger car engines, like the powerful cars of the 1960s and 1970s, created a need for even more ZDDP up to .010 or .012 percent. It is this peak amount that has now been reduced to about .08 percent again. So, these engineers maintain, it is unlikely that the use of API-SM oils will result in catastrophic failure of our old engines. (They do caution that additives like GM's EOS are recommended for starting up flat tappet engines. And muscle car drivers appear to have cause to be wary.)

These engineers are experienced lubrication professionals, and their words should not be dismissed lightly. But technology moves on, at an accelerating rate. Current tests may not always tell us how well modern oils will serve our old cars over the long term. The authors of the paper agree that further reductions in zinc and phosporous are coming, and may provide proper protection only for newer cars. They even wonder aloud how much interest there will be in the future in protecting old and obscure engines.

So will current and future oils affect the ultimate longevity of our collector cars? At this writing, there may be some cause for concern.

Oil companies are under pressure to assist engine manufacturers in wringing the most miles per gallon out of their fleet averages, and appear to be, for now, willing to trade mileage for longevity. That is exactly the opposite of the interests of collector car owners. At the same time, the oil companies are aware of the effect of the removal of ZDDP from motor oils on older cars. Zinc-based additives are not the only way to achieve antiwear chemistry and most of the major companies are working on and incorporating substitute antiwear additives. But new engines do not require the level of antiwear protection that our older metallurgy and designs do. So it is possible that the antiwear package in future oils may never again reach the levels that we require." End of quote.

Note that the amount of ZDDP in current oils is about the same as in the 1950s. But it keeps going down, so I do worry about the future.

I have never seen an SAE recommendation for 1200 ppm of ZDDP for flat tappet engines. Can you tell me where this can be found?

The additive package in modern motor oil was designed to be a balanced recipe. Adding a couple of eggs to a cake recipe does not improve the cake. ZDDP in strengths of over 1600 ppm begins to attack yellow metals, like the ones in our cam bearings. Since you do not know the content of the ZDDP in the oil as purchased, how can you know how much to add? The Silver Ghost Association has commissioned an anti-wear additive that is NOT zinc-based, so it can be safely added to oil. Oil producers are working on non-zinc additives too. (Although if their current performance in the Gulf of Mexico is any reference, I'm not sure how far we can trust anything they say.)

If the tests I've seen are any indication there is, as you say, much variation in the qualities of gear lubes. Less so, I believe, in name brand motor oils.

I drive my Cord as much as anyone, and I want it to outlive me. I use either Shell Rotella T plus the SGA additive (expensive) or CCCA Classic Car Motor Oil (A bit less expensive.) Both of these are like chicken soup -- can't hurt.

And frankly, I published Ryan Stark's article to be provocative. Let's see what others say.

We can't compare modern oils and modern engines to the old stuff. Cars haven't had distributors with gears on them in at least ten years. They also don't have oil pumps running on gears. Camshaft and crankshaft sensors have replaced old school mechanical parts. A lot of pistons today have about a 2-3" total height with less rings, and moly coated skirts. Even the fuel pumps are electric without a pushrod running on the camshaft. All roller valvtrain and they were working on electric valve train 5 years ago. What I'm getting at is the engines are designed to have as little friction as possible for fuel efficiency. They don't need metal to metal additives that the old cars do. This fleet testing doesn't really help us out as all of those cars are designed like I mentioned above. I read that the SAE recommends at least 1200ppm of ZDDP for any flat tappet engine. These ZDDP additives aren't that expensive and why not use it just for peace of mind? I ran durability testers for spider gears and cast iron housings for 8 of the years I worked in the R&amp;D facility. I lived and breathed gear lube. I wasn't testing gear lube but I can tell you that gear lube is not gear lube. The gear lube all did the job but under heavy loads that I ran some excelled and some didn't. Different OEM's wanted required different lubricants for PPAP testing. I usually ran the same load and RPM's for GM and Ford trucks. The same spider gears were used in each test but the oil would affect the test. It is a known fact that oil companies have reduced the zddp in most oils. If the SAE recommends 1200ppm then I think they are as reputable as anyone. I do believe oil is oil when it comes to modern engines but I feel that is misleading for the old cars.

Actually, it's a tongue-in-cheek recitation of how he has always chosen oil by how "cool" the bottle looks! But his point remains the same. The lab's website is [url:2emdypl9]http&#58;//www&#46;blackstone-labs&#46;com[/url:2emdypl9].

Looking forward to reading this. I agree oil is oil. parts cannot run metal to metal, any metal any time.
K Clark

Interesting article in Newsletter #4 (due out in a few days) written by Ryan Stark, the president of a respected oil analysis lab. They have analyzed over 400,000 samples of motor oil in their quarter-century in business -- cars, boats, aircraft. The spectrographic analysis looks for particles of metal -- iron, aluminum, copper, tin, lead, etc. The measurements are in the parts per million. All the truck and car fleets do this regularly, because the analysis can predict failure by seeing what's wearing. Copper and tin mean bearing wear, iron and aluminum may be cylinder walls and pistons, etc. This is a simplistic description but the fleet people and racing people swear by it.

So this guy's lab has actual, real-world experience with lots of engines running with levels of ZDDP that get lower every year. If anyone has, they should have seen engine wear being caused by lower levels of ZDDP, right? Actually, no. His bottom line -- "oil is oil".

There are indeed lots of stories, on the Internet and elsewhere, about damage to flat-tappet engines on startup. I do not have the engineering or engine-building experience that would enable me to analyze these damages. But Mr. Stark's opinion cannot just be discounted.

Write to the Newsletter after you read the article. Responses will be published.

I use a product called Cam Shield in all the engines I do. It's an additive to replace the ZDDP to whatever level you want. If I remember correct 2500ppm for race/break in and 1200 PPM in normal oil. I understand with the lighter valve springs it's not as important as a small block. I still believe in these additives as I've seen wiped out camshafts lately on small blocks that are gone for no reason. I've also rebuilt numerous modern engines and they are all roller without the need for a metal to metal cushion like these older engines. Last week I visited Competition Cams with the Buick Skylark club. They sell their own oil and break in lubes with high ZDDP content. Their R&amp;D center technician said all non roller engines should use a ZDDP additive or oil containing it. After working in a R&amp;D facility for 10 years myself working on differential testing I tend to believe this guy. Their are all kinds of additives for differentials that make big differences in diff life. Old mineral oil for example has better galling resistance under heavy load than the new synthetics. But.... it runs hotter and has slight less fuel mileage than synthetic and that is why the oems went to it in the late 90's. Once the synthetic oil gets above operating temps it losses something and the drive pinion chews right into the ring gear. I noticed this a lot more after everything was switched to synthetic diff oil.

I use Rotella T also. It's 15W-40 and suits the Cord nicely. It is rated for both diesel and gasoline engine use and its ZDDP content is higher than off-the-shelf gasoline engine motor oil. The level of ZDDP has been dropping since their Diesel grade SJ (now at SM) but it's still higher than regular motor oil.

Another option is Classic Car Motor Oil specially formulated for the Indiana Region of CCCA. Has special additives that help it cling to parts during long storage, plus the right level of ZDDP.

Joel, I think it is VR-1 Valvoline that you are refering to. They also make a strictly racing oil but it is to be changed every 500 miles and not a good choice for are cars. I used to use VR-1 but it is hard to find on the shelf in any thing but 20W50 and that is heavier than I like to use. I use 15W40 Rotella. Has the same ZDDP as VR-1.
CORDially Mike

Valvoline V V R offroad racing oil has the required ZDDP for all non roller engines

As a general rule, do not dump any additive in your oil. Rarely will it improve anything and it can do lots of harm.

For a dissertation on the use of modern motor oils in our cars see www.amazon.com/Keep-Collector-Al ... 569&sr=1-6 . It was written with ACD cars in mind.

And I've been paid -- I don't get any more money if you buy one!

Brad - I think you are referring to an additive called ZDDP that has been removed or reduced in some modern oils (I think some diesel oils still have it as do some racing oils). I did a bit of digging on this last year for our local car club. The addative helps prevent wear on sliding metal to metal applications like valve lifters and cams.

From what I have fond out, ZDDP didn't come into use until the late 1930's or early 40's, thus its absence from oils in our 30's cars should not be an issue. Most of the problems I have read about were in 50's engines (and newer) that were high compression, stiffer valve springs, etc.

Maybe somebody has some better info here.

Well Mike, I can tell you I haven't slept with my local Napa owner either but I can get non detergent oil from them also. Heres another can of worms but don't forget some type of zinc additive for your cam and lifters as the new oils don't contain the proper additives. This zinc supposedly caused cat convertors to clog and engines today have all roller valve trains and don't have the metal to metal contact of older cars. Lucas oil products usually available at most auto stores should stock or can get this additive.

Thanks C.R.D. I found some Shell 30W non-detergent at Advance, think I'll try that

Hi Steve,
The detergent vs non-detergent oil issue as you have probably noticed is a divided issue. Everyone will have to make there own decision. I use non-detergent oil in my older vehicles as the engines have never been rebuilt and without a full flow oil filter I believe it is best.
That being said Dollar General Stores, Walmart and Tractor Supply around here all sell non-detergent oil. I believe the closest Tractor Supply to your location would be Ashland, KY. Good luck in your search.
Carl

Greg is the only guy I know who gets to sleep with the local NAPA store owner. And he gets a good discount too.
CORDially Mike

Wee Robbie related a story to me a few years ago about something that happened to the late Doug Johnson's Cord. It seems they had a reason to pull the pan off Doug's recently restored engine. I don't believe it was specifically an oil problem, but since the bearing caps were accessable, they had a look. I was told the bearing surfaces were somewhat scoured looking which surprised them both. In talking to others, they came to the conclusion that the metal particles generated by breaking in a new engine were being suspended in the detergent oil (which works exactly as Josh says it does) and in the absence of a full flow oil filter, were continually dragged over the bearing surfaces.

I am no oil expert either, but there's another viewpoint for you.

today the NAPA logo by valvoline is the game
#75-115 should get you started, double check my number
it is readily available in the indiana whse and columbus
ohio should be the same

Thanks Greg, I actually worked at NAPA for about 9 years, 20-25 years ago. We stocked all kinds of straight 30W and 40W oils (remember Wolf's Head brand?), but it's hard to find around here now.

straight 30w and 40w in detergent and non-det
should be available at your local NAPA store
our local owner stocks it for me
greg

Classic Car Club of America's Indiana Region makes a new oil formulated for cars driven occasionally. Check it out.

More to the point, "detergents" in detergent oils are NOT cleaning agents as we understand them in Fantastic and 409. Sorry to be stubborn, but any petroleum engineer will tell you that they do not "scour" the engine. They work with dispersants to hold dirt in suspension until it can be filtered or drained. Yes, they do remove some accumulated sludge over time. So when you change to a detergent oil (or if you don't know what was in the car) change your oil at least 2-3 times every 500 miles. Oil is comparatively cheap. You should have no problem thereafter.

To be honest I'm not sure what type of oil my Dad had in it, I suspect it was detergent, but don't know. It is not a newly rebuilt engine.

Hello Steve:

as Michael already said: If your engine is not completely rebuilt and completely cleaned out - do not use modern detergent multi grade oils. It will break off all the dirt and carbon inside the engine and the oil pump will pump this around and around, thru bearings and so on....

In Germany there are different non detergent single grade oils available, especially made for use in old vintage engines. I use these oils since many years and never had any problem with oil leaks or smoking.

f.i. from Millers Oils (England) or Castrol Classic. Should not be too hard to find.

Best wishes

Andreas

STEVE,

I DON,T CLAIM TO BE AN OIL EXPERT, ALL I CAN DO IS RELATE MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, IF YOU CHANGE FROM NON TO DETERGENT OIL IN A CAR RUN FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS ALMOST INVARIABLY THE ENGINE WILL START TO LEAK AND BLOW SMOKE, THIS IS BECAUSE THE NON DETEGENT OIL LEAVES DEPOSITS THAT BUILD UP THROUGHOUT THE ENGINE, SUCH AS THE RINGS ETC. THE DETERGENT OIL BREAKS ALL THIS DOWN AND IT GETS FLUSHED OUT.

IF YOUR ENGINE IS NEWLY REBUILT I,M SURE THERE IS NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER, BUT IF IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN RUN ON DETERGENT OIL GET READY FOR LEAKS AND SOME VALVE GUIDE BLOW BY SMOKE ALONG WITH POSSIBLY SOME RING SMOKE UNTIL THE RINGS RESEAL THEMSELVES.

If you use non-detergent oil you might want to also seek out cotton-covered wiring and rayon-ply tires. The only evidence that "if it was good enough fr our cars in the 1930s, it's best for them now" is the occasional anecdote. Extensive testing and millions of miles of experience show that modern detergent oil will protect your car's engine best. This is especially true of cars, like some of our ACDs, that have no oil filters.

Hard to find 30W oil anymore, was wondering about using non-detergent or detergent?
Thanks