CERTIFICATION AND JUDGING RESULTS

The old photo proves the camaraderie that existed with Cord owners back as far as memory recalls.

As far as judging there is a concept as the spirit of the law,

Pro and con:
Following the spirit of the law but not the letter is generally viewed more favorably than following the letter but not the spirit. In a court of law, judges usually review the intent of the players involved.

Authoritarians tend to view "following the spirit" negatively as disobeying the law. The reason is that the actual intent of the law may be ambiguous, and allowing anyone to follow his own interpretation of the law may result in anarchy.

bill

since you asked.

i always wanted to be 007 in my next life, so one day while trying to log onto a website i tried the password drno, and it kicked back NO. similar to my certification experience, ha ha. so i tried dryes. and again it was NO. so in frustration i tried dryesandno. and voila, i was in. so it kinda stuck with me.......

bill, i can't say enough about everything you do for us on this forum. it is truly amazing. and knowing the car company you keep in your garage, and in appreciation of everyone in this thread spending their valuable time with little old me, which i really do appreciate, i am going to send you guys a pic which i truly think is as amazing as all you folks are too.

this one of my beloved 1937 cord 812 s/c cabriolet in the foreground circa 1950 which i received from James Ducy Jr. who was born in 1927 and is standing in coveralls with his right foot on the bumper of the beverly.

apparently he and his friends had a "bunch" of cords around town. check out the retro bumper on my car.........and imagine James driving from Framingham Massachusetts up to Tiny Hermann's Unusual Used Car Dealership in Sudbury, Massachusetts around 1948 or 1949 and buying this car off the lot, and then a few years later selling it in July, 1952 to Charles Dailey for $100 according to the bill of sale that Charles's grandson sent me recently.

i am working on finding some relatives of Tiny Hermann's and would like to know more about the Unusual Used Car dealership, if anyone remembers it in Sudbury, Mass.

a pretty cool pic. i hope you like it.



and Tim, don't worry. this one was already certified years ago, ha ha. with the correct bumper. which, by gosh, just might not have come from the factory, or at least probably came from another car!!!!

brent

tim

really i don't know what to say.

i had my car judged and they wouldn't give me the score sheet or tell me what they found. maybe i was too new and i didn't push them hard enough to tell me verbally. now that i know i can, i will be smarter and a little more forceful next time.

so i asked the chief judge at the time and he told me in an e-mail that i had to speak to club members to learn more about my cars.

so here i am trying to do that. and although i appreciate your offer, you are now telling me that i have to join the certification team to learn more about my cars.

like where does it end......

i went to the acd library and bought every book they had on v12 speedsters. i read them from cover to cover. then i crawled up, over and under the car. i cross referenced every bit of it to the manuals. i measured the frame size. yup it was thick enough. thicker than the eight.

i checked the frame brackets. yup, they were all there, and unused as they should be on the speedster body frame.

so what am i missing? why can't some knowledgeable sole let me know what the difference is and where my car is lacking.

why as joel suggests, can't we just be upfront and forthright and tell everyone in the club what you need to have to get a speedster certified. why is it such a big secret???

i like you guys, i just find this going around in circles to be a bit frustrating.

for all to know, the history of my 32 auburn speedster is apparently known from knew. in the 60's, when authenticity was less of an issue, one of the owners decided to do a body switch between two cars that he owned, a V8 speedster and a V12 brougham, just like many of the duesenbergs that have been certified.

unlike 1936 cords that have been certified with 1937 supercharged engines (which was never a possible "model" in 1936), my car has a correct V12 frame, a correct speedster body and a correct V12 engine, according to what the certification team told me that looked at the car. they just didn't all come from one car.

many of the cars we certify today have been "pieced" together from multiple cars, as there are not too many barn finds left........

this car was not pieced together, it was simply a body switch. everyone tells me that a v8 speedster body and a v12 speedster body are identical.

i thought a car had to be all correct parts and not create a new model in order to be certified. but as joel and tim say, it seems the clubs position on v12 speedsters is different.

in this case it appears that the car must be able to be proven that it came from the factory as a speedster. now thats a tall order for any owner, given that these cars are now 76 years old. so potential buyers should be aware of this situation. i have worked on tracing the history of my other cars, and i can tell you that to trace it back to the factory is no mean feat, if not nearly impossible.

hopefully, one day soon, someone in the club will be able to tell me what is not correct about it and why it does not meet the currently adopted definition of certification, perhaps they will even post it on this forum.

until that time, i am going to enjoy my car. and you can too. here is a picture of the nicest 32 auburn v12 speedster on the planet.

all caretakers are entitled to think their kids are the best.....right.



and if you can believe it, that colour was a real possibility and can be found as apple green in the ditzler intermix colour samples from the 30's.

and bill is right. i should quit whining about the cost of shipping my car. if he can spring for the cost to come every year from texas, i can foot the bill to come from ontario right.......

see you next year in auburn.......

bdm

I jest got it!

After years of trying to figure out Brent's login name. It finally hit me.

Its not drye-sando ... it's DR yes and no. Good grief!

OK, Brent, where did that one come from?

Tim,
I was only trying to be more definative for the forums sake.
The lack of understanding on what is "certifiable" seems to be the "root cause" of DRYESANDNO's statements concerning certification.

It may be a real benefit to the Membership if detailed statements as to what is deemed certifiable is outlined including the "subtle differences" so as not to be viewed as prejudicial toward car owners whose cars do not meet these requirements.

Joel: You know I agree with you 100% on the V-12 chassis vs the V-12 Speedster chassis. That's what I meant when I said there are subtle differences.

Tim Gilmartin wrote: Certification does allow for engine changes and even body swaps. The owner must mention this in his certification application under known history of the car. There are subtle clues available for the certification team to check.

Tim's response is correct for all makes and models of ACD cars, except, to my understanding...........Auburn 12 cyl speedsters have a slightly different criteria. They must be on a 12 cyl speedster chassis which differs from other 12 cyl body style chassis and must have started out life as a 12 cyl speedster body, not an 8 cylinder speedster body. This is where the Historians, Paul Bryant and Frank and Jim Cek "earn their money."

If my thinking on this is not correct, please offer an explanation as to what I have said that is in error.

I got to watch Brad Waken this year as he performed his duties as Chief Judge. That is a job I would never want! It completely consumes your weekend.

I believe the cutoff for getting your car judged is early in August. The reason for that is that Brad has to line up the appropriate number of judges to make up teams for each car marque.

Late entries are accepted and an additional fee is required, but I think you can only display your car and join in the parade.

Everyone! There is no excuse for registering late! The forms come out in July and if you really want to participate, then send the form in July.

It helps all of our volunteers. Remember, everyone is a volunteer! They have to plan the meet, give headcounts to caterers for meals, line up judges, and on and on.

I know Brent was upset a few years back when he could not get judged, but I believe he missed that early August deadline. The chief judge (Brad was not the CJ at that time) has to go by the rules.

And Brent, don't feel your transportation costs were a waste. Everyone enjoys seeing you and your car. I have spent that amount of money every year for the past 7 years bringing my Cord to Auburn. And the judges have told me to stay 500 yards away from them!

Bring your cars to have fun. We like seeing the changes you are making. If you get in on the judging one year and win something, then all the better.

I don't know who bgm is, but this is a reply to him/her. Perhaps you were late getting your registration in on time to meet the judging deadline. Just guessing. Your best bet is to continue your questions with Brad Waken.
When I stated that judges should answer your questions about what wrong/right with the car; as a point of clarification: this should be done after the judging is complete (not just your car, but all cars in your class). You're not to bother the judges when they are still judging.
Certification does allow for engine changes and even body swaps. The owner must mention this in his certification application under known history of the car. There are subtle clues available for the certification team to check. If you would really like to find out more, join the certification team. We enjoy recruiting new members!

Tim, i am not sure where you got the idea i was late to get in the park. I was not late getting to the park. My fee was accepted for judging and my cheque was cashed by the club. I will try and find it and post it here so you can see it. No one ever contacted me to tell me that my check was received late or that i would not be judged. Until i spent $2500 to ship my car to the meet, went through the car in motion judging area, parked my car on the field and then the chief judge informed me my application for judging had been received too late which was contrary to what the organizers who cashed my check told me on the phone. Notwithstanding, as you have indicated, since the chief judge has the final say, he refused to judge my car and that was that. Not exactly the responsive sort of club that mike seems to be referring to.

Its great that you are willing to tell owners what is wrong with their car when you do the judging, however, i was told exactly the opposite when i had my car judged. i wasn't to be asking questions of the judges. I have no problem following the rules. So do we have some in this area? Is the owner allowed to ask the judges and are they obliged to respond to questions about what they are finding wrong with a car during judging?

In the CCCA (sorry to mention that word again) each judge marks down his own form without speaking to the others. This is written in the judging policies and if there are any questions, the policy says they are to be taken up between the lead judge and the owner. The owner is not supposed to be speaking to the judges during or after the process. The judging sheets can be obtained by requesting them in writing within 30 days after the meet. What is the policy at acd in this regard and where can i find it?

Obviously if glenn pray was never a member of the BOD he can't be booted off, so clearly the writers of that thread were misinformed. thanks for straightening this out.

Pat, i do not think that the solution to members questioning the judging of the cars is to hide behind a secretive score sheet. Quite the opposite in fact. If the process was transparent, there would be less issues and not more. If the membership understand the rules, they are clearly communicated to them and the rules are applied equally to everyone in an open and transparent way, i think they will also be accepted by everyone. Why not try it and see?

Interestingly, i found the certification process to be excellent, totally 100% transparent and those certifying (or not) the cars were always willing to discuss what they were finding and why and how they were coming to their conclusions. You were free to review their sheets and discuss their conclusions. Where it became more cloudy is when the certifiers signed off on a car and then the board made a different decision. You guys are saying it doesn't happen, but i think it has. I stand to be corrected though and will double check my facts.

The process of certification seemed to me to work well. The problem with certification lies more in understanding what is certifiable and what is not. On this point there seems to be alot of disagreement within the club. Some club members seem to feel that if a car is all original parts, even if they came from different cars, that the car is certifiable. Others say that the car must be an authentic original exactly as it came from the factory, except for duesenbergs which, since they came from the factory with just engines and frames, the body could be from any duesenberg. In other words, body switches seem to be allowed on duesenbergs but not on cords or auburns, for certification purposes.

I really think that this confusion may, unfortunately, lead one day to lawsuits for the club unless the certification policy is further clarified and communicated effectively to all members.

Murray, your session is a great idea, unfortunately due to bad weather in my parts i was not able to make it down for the friday session. Hopefully next year. However, i think your sessions do not totally solve the issue of open judging sheets. But they are a great contribution to the members and thank you for taking the time to help us out in this way.

bdm

One of the concern the judging and certification team has, as well as the board of directors, is the growing of concern of those who feel if the decision made by these groups that are not to their liking, just sue the club. The board has such a case in front of it now. If every time someone does not like a decision, and angery responses and treats are returned, our volunteers on these group will soon quit their jobs. No matter how thorough and correct we think our process is, some individuals seem to want to battle us. I am sure most of our club members understand this, and feel our processes are OK. If we provide the judging scores to an owner, we know it will spark a tremendous amount arguments. One of the ways we hope to eliminate much of this will be the restoration guidelines. These guidelines will be prepared by our club's best technicians and historians. Even when these are done, many questions or exceptions will crop up. As I was told once, if your car has siginificant differences, be prepared to document those in detail. The same holds true for our certification team. Both the certification and judging team need to be respected by particiapnts and I am sure their information will become more transparent. Murray Hall also highlighted another method the club has begin to help each member better prepare a car to be judged. Very simply put, "we are here to serve the club's needs".

The Chief Judge makes the decision about who gets into the park to be judged. If you were late getting on the judge's list, well, that's too bad. As a restorer friend of my says about getting in line for his restoration shop sequencing: "Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

I've been a judge. I have always told owners what was wrong with their car, if asked. As far as I know, that is still the policy. Points taken off have never been discussed. I know some clubs allow the owner to see the judging sheet. This policy could be changed.

Certification: I am on the certification team. As with Pat's answer, I know of no BOD decision to overrule Paul Bryant.

Glenn Pray was never on the BOD; so he was never "booted off." I intend to revisit this issue at the next BOD meeting.

Murray,

Your tech session was well attended. Looks like the Club Members really enjoyed the session.

Maybe one of the BOD members or Judges can explain why we currently do not release the details on the judging and certification results.

For years, I have agreed that it is hard to improve your car if you do not know where you lost marks for authenticity. That is why I brought up the idea at a board meeing of having a Tech session. They agreed and we have done it on the Friday afternoon for the last 3 years. It is open to any member, not just judges, and we talk about what is correct on the cars in attendance. Several people have commented on what a great learning experience it was. Some people were taking detailed notes at the sessions.
I am always looking for representative cars to examine at this session. We do early and late Auburns, L-29 Cords and 810-812 Cords. I try to get an open and closed model of each. Original urestored cars are particularly welcomed. If you would like to volunteer your car, please contact me and I will try to include it next year.
Murray Hall

Mike Dube wrote: And the CCCA is not? As a member of both clubs, I must say that while politics and cronyism exist to some extent in both, ACD is a good deal less stuffy. I know from past experience that while we may not always agree with our board's decisions, they are responsive. Get to know us a little better.

Ditto, except replace CCCA with AACA.

dryesandno wrote: jeg

i haven't been a member of this club for long enough to know much, but i can tell you this. almost every single car enthusiast that i have spoken to who is either not connected to this club or is a member on the outside, has the view that this club is highly politicized and made up of a bunch of cronies.


bdm

And the CCCA is not? As a member of both clubs, I must say that while politics and cronyism exist to some extent in both, ACD is a good deal less stuffy. I know from past experience that while we may not always agree with our board's decisions, they are responsive. Get to know us a little better.

pat

thanks for the considerate reply to our posts. the time you have spent to address the concerns of this forum is most appreciated.

my comments are brief.

firstly, there appears to be a clear procedure to be followed to have glenn pray designated an honorary member. if a vote was had and he lost, well thats democracy for you. i suppose, as you suggest, there can always be another..........

you didn't really address the issue about him being voted off the board after his first term in a secret ballot. just wondering if that really happened or do my collegues have the facts wrong there.

secondly i don't think that the decision to keep secret the judging forms is in the best interest of the members of this club. if you were to list the pros and the cons of allowing members to see their judging sheets, at least a few days after the event, i think the pros would easily win out.

this is not something that the board should be waiting for the chief judge to ask for or initiate. this is something the board should be taking the initiative on, as an open and transparent club is the only way to go. this is about a much bigger issue than judging. its about an operating philosophy of the club, which surely is a board level decision and not that of the chief judge.

thirdly, your comment about not having space in the newsletter to publish the minutes is pretty weak. as i mentioned earlier the ccca seems to find the space. in any event, if this is truely the issue, then why can't the board minutes be published on this forum? it could easily be done. it could be password protected so only members could access it. but since we don't see that happening, we can only presume the board wishes to operate without transparency.

perhaps in the board members only section that bill has mentioned the minutes are already there. so really we might just be talking about opening them up to the general membership? what could be the harm?

hasn't bill done an amazing job on this forum. thanks bill.......

which brings me to an interesting question. if a member requests a copy of the board minutes, are they entitled to get them under the current by-laws?

with regard to openings on the board or other committees, i think solicitation through the presidents column in the newsletter might not be the best forum. not everyone reads your column i am sure.

once per year, the club should solicit participation by including with the newsletter a list of available positions and a form that members can fill out to apply for such positions. to my knowledge i have never seen such a document in any mailing i ever received, but heh, maybe i missed it.

isn't this the best way to have a well rounded club.

pat. i appreciate being president (and treasurer even more i bet) is a thankless job. impossible to keep everyone happy. this is a pretty great and active club. the board is doing a wonderful job. we are just talking about a few minor issues here.

look. we all appreciate very much the time and effort of the volunteer board and its committees. no question.

but since the views of the general members on these issues don't really seem to be sought out, about the only way for us to speak our mind is through this forum.

i hope you understand. in the end, you are the president, now the treasurer, so i will defer to you on these issues.

bdm

I would like to respond to a number of comments made on this subject:

1.) Please refer to the By-Laws in the directory for the procedure on the election of an honorary member. The Board has had two meetings and a vote had been taken on the nomination of Glenn Pray as honorary member. The vote must be unanamious. The vote was 7 for and 2 against. Often we have a written ballot on items. This is not unusual. As I have outlined to Ethan Turner, this item can be added to our agenda again for consideration (we have two new members).

2.) On this subject, the BOD members had been asked to poll a number of members on this subject prior to the vote including past presidents. Discussing this with BOD members, their are those in favor, and those opposed. These BOD members have not taken this request lightly. Having been president for two years I can tell you we have a number of requests that we have processed for BOD review. As Bill Hummel has listed, the BOD does communicate often. I had a number of letters addressed to me personally many for, but some against on this amtter. This is not a dead issue.

3.) I have been on the BOD for 5 years and to my knowledge, we have never refused a car recommended for certification. I cannot speak for years past.

4.) For those that think the BOD job is full of "cronies", take a look at the cross section of our group. These people are very active members, a cross ection reperesentation in the US and Canada, who are willing to donate many hours of time with NO compensation. I have regular solicited for candidates in my articles and have seen little to no response.

5.) Although I have not served on the judging process, the procedure we use has been in place for years. The points score has been revised only. The comment on judging sheet inspection by owner has been commented by a few for years. We have a new chief judge, Brad Waken, and I would advise you contact him of your concerns. To change the process the Judging team needs to submit a recommendation to our board for approval. This is normal procedure for many of our items such as certification. It is not board's procedure to tell these groups how to do their jobs, but to confirm their requirements.

6.) I became a member in 1999 and began attending a number of meets and met many of our club members. I have never felt as outsider in the club. As president I got an average of 10 calls a week from members and non-members who required assistance, many I could help, but some of them required time and research. As I mentioned in my last N/L article, our process is little slow, but we have a well definied procedure that we follow in our By-Laws. Although this club has many high profile members, many of us have just been fortunate to own or love these cars in our minimal way. Our club is a made up of many who are barely able to make ends meet to those who have no wants for money. Generally we all blend together very well. As far as I can tell, most of the public outside our club feels that our cars are so high in value, the general public can not relate to them or us. I began a program to create video diaries of members at meets that will soon be on our website. The people who visit our website will be able to view a 5-10 minute video interview with members. We did about 12 at the East Spring meet and about 18 at Auburn. I think the public will be amazed at how down to earth our club is.

7.) Our board meetings do have official minutes (which are a number of pages), but are too big to post in the newsletter (4 times a year). Normally, any general item of interest are listed in the president's column. Our meetings are not closed to the members, but we may have sensitive matters that would dictate some discretion. If a member would like to speak at a BOD meeting please request this from the president in advance, and as long as time allows, we will accommodate your request (this has happened just at our last meeting at Auburn).

In closing, the BOD members want to represent ALL of our members. I feel in the past two years, the hours devoted by our BOD team was greter than ever. Still, things remain to be accomplished. As move from the presidents job, to the treasurer again, I welcome all comments.


PAT LEAHY

Treasurer, PNP

jeg

i haven't been a member of this club for long enough to know much, but i can tell you this. almost every single car enthusiast that i have spoken to who is either not connected to this club or is a member on the outside, has the view that this club is highly politicized and made up of a bunch of cronies.

now i don't know the truth of the matter. but some of my experiences thus far seem to indicate it to be so.

from an incident where i sent my L29 to the elkhart park show to be judged and the chief judge refused to have it judged because he said i was late with my fees, which was not true. as indicated by the fact that when i got my numbers on the car at the entrance, they had put a judging sticker on my car, but someone had taken it off, so they seemed to know. the result was a wasted $2500 in trucking fees. how ridiculous that one man in the club could call the shots like this without any discussion. interestingly, i was never refunded my judging fees.

to another situation where i had one of my cars judged and then discover that they not only refuse to give you a copy of the judging sheet, but they also refuse to speak to you about what items they noticed were not correct. how am i supposed to better my vehicle under these circumstances. the entire judging process was one big veil of secrecy.

to another where the certification supervisor signed off on the certification of one of my cars and somehow the board of directors thought the better of it. yet no one contacts me or calls me or tells me anything about what the issue is. even the certification supervisor has no idea why the board overuled his decision.

and now to a situation that jeg is describing, if its true, where they boot glenn pray off the board in a secret vote.

i for one think its about time this club opened up and became alot more transparent.

for goodness sakes, its just a car club. we are all big boys.

why is everything kept a big secret. the complete board minutes should be included in every news letter.

have you ever taken a look at the CCCA and how they run their club. why you can get a copy of your judging sheet no problem. and the complete minutes of every BOD meeting is included in the newsletter.

i have never heard any complaints about transparency in that club.

we better get with the 21st century and do it quick. as the value of these cars continues to increase, more and more is at stake, and its just a matter of time before someone uses some of their doe to legally straighten this club out.

the members have a right to know what the heck their board of directors is doing and how they are voting. plain and simple.

how can we have a club operating like this in the dark ages???

bdm