New Engine Oil in Old Cars

The "you", Bob, was generic. No offense meant.

It should be pointed out that zinc in motor oil in concentrations of over 1600ppm becomes corrosive. At the 2200 ppm that would result from 25% of this product (1 qt to 3 qts of motor oil) it is downright dangerous to engine longevity. I wonder who their chemists are?

I did not say any thing about trusting or not trusting any one. I was just passing on information on the subject. The members can deside for them selves to check it out. Bob Farbacher

So you won't trust that ILSAC and API's testing of SM oils shows satisfactory protection (so far) with SM oils, but you [i:3184vlai]will[/i:3184vlai] trust your expensive (and perhaps irreplaceable) engine to an unknown company with a funny name? Hmm.

I was reading a trade magazine, there was a new ad for oil and greases. The name of the company is Les Frickshun. Their address is P.O. Box 1405 Oil City Pa 16301. The email address is <a href="mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url]. They have a zinc additive where you replace one quart of your favorite API SM motor oil on a five quart change with less frickshun zinc to achieve 1500 PPM zinc level. Use one quart with three quarts to reach levels used in our synthetic blend racing oil 2200 PPM zinc. The list of products that they have are: motor oil - gear oil - greases - assembly lube - additives - honing oil - cutting oil - hydraulic oil. Bob Farbacher

All I can say is 'AMEM'

CORDially,

Al Hatch

Your engineer is probably young, Al. ZDDP was introduced into motor oils in the 1940s, primarily as a corrosion inhibitor. It took on importance as an an anti-wear agent, just as your Red Line guy says, when the new OHV V-8s became popular.

He's right that the sky is not falling. But we need to be prepared for the continuing reduction and eventual elimination of ZDDP.

But who cares --- by that time gas will be $15 per gallon and no-one will be driving anyway. UNLESS one of our presidential hopefuls stands up on his (or her) hind legs and says "We created an atomic bomb in four years, and we went to the moon in eight. We can become energy independent in ten, if we make it THE national priority. Because everything else --- food, foreign policy, etc. --- flows from this.

Off soapbox.

Although not addressing the zinc issue, I have recently started adding LUCAS Oil Stabilizer to my old school, high compression 390 V8. They recommend using 20% in an engine without excess wear (1 quart of 5, easy!) or up to 60% in a worn engine. The stuff is $30/gallon at Summit Racing but that's enough for 4 oil changes. Hoping to enjoy the benefits I have seen with other LUCAS products, especially at start-up.

Hi,

In the national Model A Ford publication this month there was plenty of discussion on the 'ZDDP' issue. In the article there was a letter from one of their members who is an engineer for Red Line Oil which is a high grade synthetic. In his letter, he stated that this whole discussion has been blown way out of propotion and also stated that ZDDP did not come into existence until the late '50's or early '60's. Uhmmm, that las time that any of our cars were made (I believe the year was 1937). He further stated these old cars ran well without back then and not much has changed since then. Being an engineer for Red Line he recommended the synthetics (and why wouldn't he) but with all that said, being a fan of synthetic lubricants, I for one, I am with him.

Al Hatch

I'm having a 36 Auburn engine rebuilt, and the machinist said that most wear
happens during the break-in period (as Josh said). He simply coats all the parts with a special break-in grease that clings to the critical bits until the engine has warmed-up. With the modern replacement parts he uses, he has no concern about modern engine oils.

He's an old-time Lycoming aircraft engine rebuilder, so I trust his judgment.

Mark

Several points about oil:

1. SM oils contain about the same amount of zinc (ZDDP) as did motor oils of the 50s. So our cars are unlikely to be damaged by it.

2. Recorded instances of damage to cams or lifters were during start-up, not while running broken-in engines. Some start-up problems are known to have resulted from lower quality imported (China?) parts. But to be safe, use an additive like GM's EOS during start-up. It's made for that purpose.

3. ZDDP in excess of about 1600ppm becomes corrosive. Since it is difficult to determine how much ZZDP is already in your brand of motor oil, lacing it with an additive with even more ZDDP does not seem wise. And, you run the risk of upsetting the careful balance of additives that the refinery put in your oil.

4. The future is less clear. ZDDP reduction will continue. The ultimate answer, in my opinion, will be oil especially prepared for our cars or the development of non-zinc anti-wear additives.

In the meantime, be aware that oils with less ZDDP than last year are not instant death to older engines, no matter what you may have read on the Internet. Let's all take a deep breath and drive our cars while we consider the options. (Remember, unleaded gasoline was supposed to be the end of our hobby as we know it. More than twenty years have now gone by since that "disaster".)

Since I change the oil in my Auburn at least once a year, I feel it would be a waste to throw away the "old" oil. I simply keep it for use in my older diesel truck. Since the filter on the Auburn isn't very effective, it just makes sense to change the oil as much as possible. The truck runs fine, and I change the filter on it a little more often.

My two cents...

:rolleyes:

Mark

You can use either dino or synthetic oil - just use a zddp additive:

www.zddplus.com

I've used to use Mobil 1 synthetic (in a non-Cord, but flat tappet style engine) until I heard that they cut out/reduced the zinc additive. I then switched to Rotella T synthetic, and I think that the additive is going away on this too in time. So I will use the above and keep the engine happy.

I think the closer your car is to a daily driver, the more important this discussion becomes. We have have a thousand cars that run an average of a mile a year and hardly ever run beyond a fast idle.

When I used to change oil in a Duesenberg I would ask myself what was available to the average Duesenberg owner in 1935. With that in mind I would go my local 7-11 and get a case of Sun Coast re-refined 30 wt. It looks, and feels, like the oils from my youth. The car didn't seem to mind.

Hi,

I am somewhat surprised that no one has brought synthetic oils. They have proven to have far superior lubricating qualities. I have use Castro Syntec 5w-50w in all of my collector cars for the past ten years. I don't know how much zinc has in it but I can tell this much, the engines run a lot smoother and quieter with synthetic oils. Another point, their viscosity is far superior and stable at higher engine temps then mineral based oils. Longtime member Bob Gheen, has used synthetics in his Cord since 1948 in as much as it was developed for the air force shortly after WW11 with no problems at all.

With all that said, I think I will stay with the synthetics, let you guys battle it out and I will stand on the side lines and watch the feathers fly!

CORDially,

Al Hatch

Hi All, I just bought my summer supply of oil and I remembered Joel saying that his engine guy recommended Valvoline V851. I was curious about it so I called Valvoline Tech. before I bought my supply. They told me it was off road racing oil with a recommended oil change interval of 500 miles. If anyone decides to use it, don't forget to change it often.
CORDially Mike

It goes by the imaginative name "Classic Car Motor Oil". Also, it is available only as a 15W-40 multi-grade. (this is whole 'nother discussion, of course, but I've been using Shell Rotella T for years, and it's the same multi-grade range.)

It can be ordered from the Indiana Region of CCCA on their website at www.classiccarmotoroil.com or by phone at (317) 225-0040.

Just started my Auburn engine with GM OES. Bought it two weeks age at Chevy dealer. $20.00 for bottle. Josh is right. What is the CCCA oil called?
CORDially MIke

The unavailability of EOS was temporary. It is GM's part # 88862586, and is now available from several sources on the internet. Just Google the part number. I got a bottle of it in the mail just last week.

Good information Josh.

Were you aware that GM discontinued EOS? It doesen't exist anymore. I would suppose it's because of the zinc.

The ZDDP issue is far more complex than it seems on the surface. I've just completed some months of research for my new book, "How To Keep Your Collector Car Alive". (Shameless plug: due from Motorbooks in August.) It has a major section on motor oils and the needs of our classics.

Here's a synopsis:
1. New and rebuilt engines with flat tappets can undergo significant wear when started up for the first time. An anti-wear additive in the oil is a must. ZDDP does his; so does GM's EOS additive.
2. Broken-in engines are at far less risk, especially those with roller cam followers (Cord V-8s, Auburn V-12s.)
3. ZDDP is the best-known anti-wear additive, and it is indeed being removed from all motor oils, gasoline and diesel. (Gasoline quicker.) Service SM oils are the next step in the inevitable eventual removal of ZDDP completely.
4. Too much ZDDP is harmful too. Levels of over 2000-2500 ppm can foul valves and corrode engine bearings. So just throwing a can of a ZDDP additive into your oil is not the answer. And check the ZDDP content on some of the specialty oils being offered for older cars.
5. Racing oils have more ZDDP, but the rest of their formulation is designed for speed, not longevity.
6. Modern engines, with their phosphated cams, roller followers and better metallurgy than ours run just fine on modern oils. The oil companies will pay less and less attention to our particular needs as years go by.

While there may be others, the only oil currently on the market that I know meets our needs fully is offered by the Indiana Region of CCCA. They worked with a specialty lubricant suppler in Indianapolis. Engineers and chemists involved include highly respected names. Their ads are now in many classic car magazines. ZDDP is included at 1200 ppm, as is a preservative to reduce rust and acidic corrosion during long periods of storage. (I have no financial connection, etc.)

Comments welcomed.

BILL,

The CCCA article referred to is the latest CCCA Bulletin where Hank Antonioli wrote an article reflecting a lot of old good information on present day oils. If you refer to one of the ACD posts in general Discussion Area from reference September 10, 2006 from Mikespeed35 (Mike Huffman), there is information on what to do. Please remember that this is now 2008 and the Shell Rotella Oils have been reformulated with less ZDDP in them. Although I have rollers in my V-12, I still have some older Shell Rotella T prior to reformulation that I stocked up on and presently using. My engine guy recommended using Valvoline V V851 when my supply runs out. This oil is for off road use only where catalytic converters is just two words. Plenty of ZDDP. Expensive but will let you sleep at night.

There is so much disinformation on the subject, that it will drive you nuts.

I have been reading where modern engine oil does not have enough ZINC in it. The reason is that Zinc fouls up catalytic converters.

Unless a Zinc Additive like ZDDP is introduced then older cars may experience premature wear on cam followers, valve lifters, camshafts, and gears.

I am getting this information from one of my CCCA tech bulletins.

What is the real story? What oil should I be using? Remember, one of my Cords is all original.