Fantasy Bidding VI: First Among Equals

Chris Summers wrote: The Barbara Atwood collection sold strongly across the board. The cars had not been shown in public since the 1990s and I think that the feeling of being able to buy great cars, unavailable to the public for so long, helped.

In the scheme of things, $858,000 for a Duesenberg that is still all-Duesenberg isn't bad. It also leaves the owner enough room for a new paint job in something other than Doublemint Green.

The Packard-bodied car may still be for sale. Hey, A.J., why not sell the Stutz and the Mercedes and pick it up?

I'm sure it still is. If that body is truly the original body to the chassis then it should be worth every bit as much as the mint green car. Although, as a rule, the later cars carry a premium over the earlier cars and the Packard body is really a 20s style.

I am surprised by the low top bid on the Packard also. I wonder what held it back?
I think we were pretty close on the Fleetwood guesses.

The Barbara Atwood collection sold strongly across the board. The cars had not been shown in public since the 1990s and I think that the feeling of being able to buy great cars, unavailable to the public for so long, helped.

In the scheme of things, $858,000 for a Duesenberg that is still all-Duesenberg isn't bad. It also leaves the owner enough room for a new paint job in something other than Doublemint Green.

The Packard-bodied car may still be for sale. Hey, A.J., why not sell the Stutz and the Mercedes and pick it up?

Chris Summers wrote: THE CADILLAC-BODIED CAR: $858,000, sold
THE PACKARD-BODIED CAR: $600,000, not sold

So, who won?

The short answer is, no one. Nobody guessed that the Cadillac-bodied car would sell for more than the Packard-bodied one.

I hate anti-climactic moments.

That is interesting because to me the Packard bodied car was prettier. So, condition, pedigree, or two bidders who really liked the later Cadillac style body set the price.

THE CADILLAC-BODIED CAR: $858,000, sold
THE PACKARD-BODIED CAR: $600,000, not sold

So, who won?

The short answer is, no one. Nobody guessed that the Cadillac-bodied car would sell for more than the Packard-bodied one.

I hate anti-climactic moments.

Steve Derus wrote: Ron Pratt (sp?) in particular, who spends more money there than anyone I think. He doesn't even change his expression most of the time when he wins a bid. He bought the serial #1 T-bird for $600k plus premiums and barely grinned. He bought the Ford tri-motor for $1.1 million while he was getting a cocktail from the bar! Anyone know some background on who he is?

Ron Pratte is a contractor in Chandler, AZ, near Scottsdale. The collection is closed to the public. He has a 1936 Auburn supercharged cabriolet and a 1937 Cord supercharged phaeton, both Rich Maroon, but no Duesenbergs that I'm aware of.

As a total non-sequitur, he looks exactly like my high school U.S. History teacher.

I'm still waiting for RM's official results to decide the FB contest.

I've watched quite a bit of the Barrett-Jackson TV coverage and I have to say that to me it is looking more like just a fancy used car auction. I can only look at so many '60s and '70s Chevys, Fords, and Dodges before I start to lose interest. I only saw a couple of cars at the most that really interested me.

I do like to watch the bidders however. Some of these fellows are amazing. Ron Pratt (sp?) in particular, who spends more money there than anyone I think. He doesn't even change his expression most of the time when he wins a bid. He bought the serial #1 T-bird for $600k plus premiums and barely grinned. He bought the Ford tri-motor for $1.1 million while he was getting a cocktail from the bar! Anyone know some background on who he is?

Steve D.

I watched Gooding & Company's webcast as well. Better cars and less annoying than Barrett-Jackson, since unlike Steve Davis, David Gooding knows when to shut up and just let people bid.

J-126 sold for $1,250,000 and J-187 for $760,000. In other ACD news, the Auburn speedster sold for $240,000. I missed the Von Kregten Cord.

Still waiting on results from RM.

J-464 was a no-sale at 1 million even.

I am watching the Gooding auction live on the internet. I missed the sale of the LaBaron, but heard them mention that it sold for over 1 million.
The Clear vision sold with a hammer price of $760k (i think, or maybe 740) compaired to it's 2006 sale of $693 total at RM.

Not yet, but I've been watching Barrett-Jackson, as I do religiously each year.

If the prices they're getting are any indication, this is not going to be a pretty January for the auctions.

Well, the Duesenbergs at RM must have crossed the auction block by now. Does anyone have any numbers??? <!-- s:?: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_question.gif" alt=":" title="Question" /><!-- s:?: -->

jonathangriley wrote: To see if their value is going up, staying steady, or going down. I know what my guess is, but I wonder what other people think is happening.

IMHO, prices as I've seen them for all manner of antique and special interest cars aren't so much flatlining as becoming reasonable. People aren't paying crazy money for cars anymore.

Look at Barrett-Jackson. The highest sale there last year was, I think, around $2 million for the Corvette Rondine. I know B-J is theatre more than substance, but that's just it: even in theatre, people are paying what cars are worth, instead of allowing themselves to be caught in the "red heat" of an auction.

The only times I expect to see crazy prices are when something truly spectacular comes up for sale. For instance, I fully expect to see the fascinating "Yellow Peril" Oldsmobile make more than either Duesenberg. Why? Because there are 380 or so Model Js left...and one Yellow Peril.

"J-126 and J-187, two of the Gooding cars, were sold to the seller through RM auctions very recently, recently enough to make an easy guess at their value. And what fun is that? "

To see if their value is going up, staying steady, or going down. I know what my guess is, but I wonder what other people think is happening.

"That said, I can't speak for J-126 or J-464, but Clear-Vision J-187 is a very nice car. If I had a spare million on hand, I would be in Arizona bidding on it."

I agree, I think that is my favorite Duesenberg at the Gooding Auction and I certainly believe that it was "well bought" in 2006.

How about the three Duesenbergs in the AZ auction put on by Gooding &amp; Co.

1929 Duesenberg J (J-126) LeBaron Dual Cowl: $1,390,000.00

1931 Duesenberg J (J-464) Rollston/Bohaman &amp; Schwartz: $1,425,000.00

1931 Duesenberg J (J-187) Clearvision Sedan, Murphy,: $850,000.00

jonathangriley wrote: How about the the three Duesenbergs in the Gooding & Cos. Az Auction?

I chose the RM cars because they posed a more interesting challenge, and neither have been offered for public sale recently.

J-126 and J-187, two of the Gooding cars, were sold to the seller through RM auctions very recently, recently enough to make an easy guess at their value. And what fun is that?

That said, I can't speak for J-126 or J-464, but Clear-Vision J-187 is a very nice car. If I had a spare million on hand, I would be in Arizona bidding on it.

The Packard Bodied Duesenberg: $925,000.00
The Fleetwood bodied Duesenberg: 790,000.00

How about the the three Duesenbergs in the Gooding &amp; Cos. Az Auction?

My bid is $1.2 million each.

Steve D.

As a correction to something I said earlier:

I was just told that Melvin Clemons traded the Packard-bodied car to Bob Bahre, as part of a package deal; Clemons received a Lincoln KB and J-492X (which he had when he died) in return. Apparently Bill Bools acquired the car from Bahre.

There's something elegant about a tall, stodgy body. Installed on the more modern Packard chassis it would probably make a great tour car.

As for the Duesenbergs, I'd like to see the Fleetwood car redone in triple-black, down to blackwalls. It has the high door sills and formal lines that can pull off a "menacing" look well. The Packard-bodied car is well nigh perfect as-is, although I'd probably swap out the steering wheel for the normal J one if given the chance.

Oddly good looking? Mark me down for disagreeing with you on that one. The Kellner/Renault/Packard I find absolutely stunning, though.
It can be seen here:
packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modul ... 89&forum=1

Balin, as I remember that Packard was in Harrah's. It was put together by James Melton for his wife, with silk brocade upholstery and gold-plated hardware. Oddly good-looking.

For sentimental reasons mostly, I'll say a cool million on J-434 / 2410 and 900K on the Fleetwood.

The Packard-bodied Duesenberg is interesting and it made me remember this photo of a Packard with a Pierce body.
1917 Pierce-Arrow limousine body with a 1937 model 1740 Packard chassis.
"Splendiferous" as in the 1950 mention.

Happy New Year Motoring!

.........Every mile is two in winter ................

West Peterson wrote: It appears as though that top can be completely removed, which is not a feature of the Model 745 Packard. It is a feature of the 734!!

According to Ray Wolff, the original chassis of this car was tested August 21, 1930. When the car was first built, as J-396/2410, it had a Derham Sedan body. That body was removed, for whatever reason, and replaced by the Packard body, which Ray Wolff said was NEW when it went on the car, and from a 1931 Packard. Wolff also claimed that it had "adjustable seats and a new cowl that made the windshield lower," and that the car was sold March 26, 1932, to G. Tucker Smith.

This would lead me to believe that the Packard body was probably installed in 1931. If it really was NEW, as in "not used," then it would be a 1931 Packard body, more correctly called an Eighth Series and a member of the 845 line. The 845 was introduced, according to Beverly Rae Kimes's Packard book, August 14, 1930, with production continuing until June 17, 1931. In other words, 845 production began before the testing of this chassis.

I trust West when it comes to Packards, and the body could have been a new Seventh Series left over. But the dates and the historian's opinion point to a 1931 8th Series body.

I would be interested in seeing that Packard-bodied Duesenberg up close. It appears as though that top can be completely removed, which is not a feature of the Model 745 Packard. It is a feature of the 734!! A much, much rarer and more desirable Packard. There is only one 734 roadster known to exist... well, two actually, but one has been customized/modified.

I would say $750k for the Packard and $600k for the Caddy. Times are tough now.

I like the Packard roadster alot. I'll guess 1.1 million.

The fleetwood dosen't do much for me, it looks top heavy compared to the the Packard or a Murphy. Perhaps bidders will see it the same way, perhaps not. I'll say $950,000.

Here's a quick reminder to get your bids in before its too late.

Full catalog entries are posted online. J-434's gets half the facts wrong.

1929 Duesenberg Model J Convertible Coupe by Fleetwood

Chassis No.
2157
Estimate:
$800,000-$1,000,000 US
OFFERED WITHOUT RESERVE

The Packard body is better looking. This is the first year in a long time I'm not going to Arizona. Looks like I'm going to miss some good cars.

Mike Dube wrote: I haven't seen Melvin's old roadster since the last time he had it at Auburn, which unfortunately is getting to be quite a while ago. I remember some of the details of the multi-party deal when Bill acquired it. Was he responsible for its current look?

Doubtful. The last I heard it was sitting in the Bool garage on four flat tires with a dead battery.

West Peterson wrote: The Fleetwood car needs new color choices.

Amen. Nice lines but it looks like an ad for Doublemint gum.

Thanks. I don't know why I couldn't find it on their site.
Nice looking, good color.
Looks like the steering wheel and hub were put together in someone's basement.

1929 Duesenberg Model J Roadster with Packard 745 Coachwork

Estimate:
$900,000-$1,200,000 US

I haven't seen Melvin's old roadster since the last time he had it at Auburn, which unfortunately is getting to be quite a while ago. I remember some of the details of the multi-party deal when Bill acquired it. Was he responsible for its current look?

I'm failing to find photos of the Packard-bodied car. I'd like to see that one. The Fleetwood car needs new color choices.

www.rmauctions.com/FeatureCars.c ... =r248&fc=0

I'm failing to find photos of the Packard-bodied car. I'd like to see that one. The Fleetwood car needs new color choices.

I stand corrected, and always glad to learn more about these cars.

Steve

Steve, I think the car in that photo is J-366 / 2381, which is a different car and still in California, according to Randy. It's still a Fleetwood, although I think the body is a little earlier than the one on the Atwood car.

Oh, well, after my misidentification of J-533 last week, we're now even.

As for condition, the only one I know anything about is the Packard-bodied car, because it used to reside here in W.V.--Melvin Clemons owned it for many years. My friend Bob, who worked at Jack Irwin's place in Huntington and serviced several Duesenbergs there, remembered it as having been driven hard and put up wet on a regular basis.

Either Clemons or his estate sold the car to the late Bill Bools. Bob met Bill Bools at Auburn a couple of years later, and when he asked about the car was told that it was sitting on four flat tires with a dead battery. I think Bob, who remembered blasting around the hills in it, was kinda upset about that.

Harry Yeaggy bought the car from Nadine Bools. I don't know if he's offering it at the auction or someone else is. I know that it was being shopped around privately, looking for a buyer, recently. In any case, at least on the outside, it seems to have been put back in fine fettle again.

There are a few photos of the cars up now on the RM site.

Their pre-auction estimates are under $1mil on both cars.

Hard to tell from the photos what condition they are in. The Packard bodied car has an interesting looking banjo style steering wheel.

Here is a photo of the fleetwood car (identified by Randy Ema) that dates back to the 1960's....looked pretty homely then compared to now.

RM Auctions is presenting two Duesenbergs at their Arizona sale in January. Not exactly unusual, except that both of these Js have, since new, worn bodies built for other makes of car, and neither has its original engine!

J-417 / 2157--MODEL J FLEETWOOD CONVERTIBLE COUPE
Originally engine J-133. Sold new to A.B. North, who originally installed a 1920s Cadillac body by Fisher; he later changed the engine twice, eventually to the current motor, and installed the current body, a later Cadillac convertible coupe by Fleetwood. This car is being offered from the estate of the late Dr. Barbara Atwood, a former Club member, who had owned it since 1985.

J-434 / 2410--MODEL J PACKARD ROADSTER
Originally engine J-396 and a Derham Sedan; that body was removed soon after the car was built and replaced with the current body, a roadster originally built for a Packard 745. Apparently the roadster body was brand-new at the time. Prior to its recent restoration, this car was green and owned by Melvin Clemans of WV and later by the late Bill Bools of OH.

Links to the auction catalog entries will be posted once RM puts full entries online.

THE CHALLENGE
Decide which of the two cars a) will be bid to/sell at the higher amount, and b) what the high bid (sale or no sale) on that car will be. You will have to choose the highest-bid car AND be closest to the correct price.

THE DEADLINE FOR GUESSES
Midnight, January 16, 2009.

THE PRIZE
As always, a hearty handshake. The difference is that, should the winner be present at the Auburn Warm-Up Meet in June, the handshake shall be presented in person!