Westchesters with outboard taillights?

This a lot more possibilities than I thought. I will dig around in the back of the car to see what might lead us to a final conclusion as to why the lights are in the outboard position.
I was supposed to replace the clutch last week, but we became unusually busy in my shop, and had to delay that project. I am not looking forward to doing that job, anyway.

It was pointed out to me (Josh Malks possibly) that the KFAC radio tower and dealership could be seen in the rear spare hubcap reflection. regarding KFAC - K is the call letter and FAC stood for "Fuller Auburn Cord" and the dealership was/is at 3443 Wilshire Blvd..

I recall at the time there was a lot of discussion about how the cars became equipped with the rear spare (ex. dealership installed or ...) and unfortunately records are largely nonexistent at best and photos just as hard to locate.

Hi,

Here are the photos that Johnmereness posted a while back.

I find this to be fascinating. Were the Continental kits factory-installed, or were the cars ordered to be ready to accept an after-market kit? Or something else?

--Tom

Tom, excellent thought about it being an exterior rear spare tire car - I posted pictures some time back of a rear spare car parked on the street in Los Angeles within eyeshot of the dealership. The interior of the trunk may have some clues, though keep in mind that due to their uniformity of construction (which for a small manufacturer is pretty impressive) it may be a tough call any way about this.

Hi,

I was thumbing through Josh Malks' Cord 810/812 The Timeless Classic, and my eyes went to two pictures of a sedan fitted with a Continental kit. (Sorry for the poor quality of the pix; this was the best my scanner could do.)

So......the brain starts to crank.... Maybe the outboard taillights were put on sedans for which a Continental kit was ordered or anticipated?

Dale, is there any evidence that your Cord ever had the hardware shown in the pictures?

Cords = Curiouser without limit.

Frank&JJ wrote: Dale, I've had the pleasure to pick both a Cord 812 and a Citroen TA apart, and to me it's quite clear that the Cord 812 design is quite strongley based on the Citroen. Monoqocue construction,in the way the floor and frame is braced, doors are built... Suspension and engine construction are different, gearbox placement about the same.... (No intention to offend anyone!)

Frank

Stands to reason as each admired the other's work.

Dale, I've had the pleasure to pick both a Cord 812 and a Citroen TA apart, and to me it's quite clear that the Cord 812 design is quite strongley based on the Citroen. Monoqocue construction,in the way the floor and frame is braced, doors are built... Suspension and engine construction are different, gearbox placement about the same.... (No intention to offend anyone!)

Frank

Hi All,
I haven't been on in a couple of days and lots of great info. I would just like to add my 2 cents on a couple of points.

The brake booster was a common addition back in the '70's and '80's. There are a couple of write-ups on how to do it. The best place to hide it is in the tail section of the left front fender. You can easily mount it on the rear fender support and it will never been seen.

I will say this on the Lockheed brakes, I had them on my '36 sedan and never had any trouble stopping. If they are set up correctly, have the proper linings on them they will stop just as well as the Bendix brakes (37).

A comment on owning two Cords - if you think one Cord is a problem...two Cords is 4 times the problems. I have found that either they both run well (which is very seldom) or they both have problems. I's swear it was "sympathy pains"

CORDially,
Jim

By the way, it has been discussed as to the next Cord to buy. For me, it would be another 36 810. Just a plain 4 door with no side pipes. The design is so clean and thoughtful. I understand the great value of the more rare convertibles, but I find that I appreciate the closed cars more. I have sold off all the convertibles in my collection except for one lowly Alfa. Also, I have a maroon and grey Citroen 15-6 Hydraulic that when it sits next to the 810, it looks like it is from the same family. Mid- 30's design, clean lines, front wheel drive, transmission under the radiator, long hood and of course appreciated but, misunderstood. I like true orphans. I never adopt a car for personal nostalgia, as I was fairly old before I ever saw a Citroen or Cord. I love alternative designs and I really enjoy hearing about the designers, backers, builders and people who are not afraid to own the unusual.
Dale

Hi. This car has the Wagner brakes, thus the requirement for a parachute or a brake booster. We have looked very carefully at the rear lid, and have not found any evidence of previous lamp holes in the lid. Frankly, I expected to find plugged holes, but they are not there. How is that for curious? Dale

Hi Dale,

Josh Malks' comment on some Cords having outboard taillights suggested that they were only that way on a small number of 1937's. Your car is numbered as an 810, ie, a 1936.

Do you know which brake system your car has? Bendix brakes--1937 production--have a star wheel adjustment at the bottom and tend to actually stop the car. Lockheed/Wagner brakes (1936 production) have two adjusting cams (at 10:00 and 2:00), no star wheels, and stop the car as a matter of good luck.

Your car is a matter of historical interest to me since it is the only Westchester I have seen with the taillights in the body. I wonder how many were made, and when.

Cords: Curiouser and curiouser and curiouser and then even more curiouser!

--Tom

Thank you for explaining what the can was. I stand corrected and happy. Yes, having more than one Cord would be really great but what other Cord would you like? Way too many styles for me to choose from. One of each would be a great set of Cords but the garage would need to be probably capable to house 20 plus Cords. I really never have stopped to figure out how many types of Cords were made. Just thinking about the convertables I can count5 or 6. Then the sedans count more than 9 or 10.

The black metal can is a radiator overflow catch. It wears black wrinkle paint and is not pretty, but it works.
I would love To have two of these cars. One, a nice driver like this and a completely orginal , totally accurate to the original build. That would be nice.. Right?
Dale

Dale can you please tell us what the can is seen on the drivers side near the radiator and trans? Some feel its a radiator catch can and I feel its an oil resivour for something.

Thanks for the updates on your beautiful car. I have been told a few times that the non power brakes on these cars were not "reasonable" for quick stopping. Being a pirist I wont be changing them but may look into some kind of improvement that is not seen. My plan is to restore my car to the way it left the factory right down to the paint color. Cord had some really great colors painted on these cars. Sadly I don't have a favorite. I pretty much like them all. Now some cars like yours did come with tail lights in the same position as yours. If you do a search in the forum you will find the late Josh Malks and several others talking about them.

Hi Dale,

What a joy to have your information on this car! I'll be very interested to hear what you find inside the trunk lid since I can find no images of another Westchester that has the outboard taillights.

Since your car is an 810, presumably it has Lockheed/Wagner brakes. That in itself is plenty of justification for a vacuum booster!

She is a beautiful car, and it sounds like the changes are functional improvements (of which I approve, not being a purist!) For sure, when 1509A eventually hits the road, it will have improvements also.

Thank you for your post!

--Tom

Hi. I own 2593A, and it lives here in Midland Michigan. Be assured, all the wires are on the solinoid array. The car is 12 volt, but the shift system runs on 6 volts through a dropping resistor. The tail lights are a quandary however, as we noticed they were in the " wrong position" in the first photos we saw before buying the car. I plan to look into the trunk lid to see if there are plugged alternative holes. I was just into the tail lights to put brighter bulbs, and nothing was revealed at that time. There might be some 1937 parts in the back, but I don't see any sheet metal grafting on the car.
The shift control ball valves were difficult to adjust, and I bought the drilled and taped elbows at Auburn. They work well, and the ball valves are gone.
I have been cleaning up wiring and I stealthed in a Pertronix ignition.
I installed a vacuum brake booster (sorry purists...). It sure makes me a lot more confident at 70 miles per hour. At least it is mounted low on the right hand side and is not easy to see.
This week she is getting a new clutch and a set of 4 new (1970s) wheels, then going to the body shop to get the wrong mirrors removed and to fix a couple of blemishes in the paint.
I would love to find an original heater, but the one in it works very well and looks decent. Any ideas???
Dale Martin

Sadly my computer will not show the pic of the wires clear enough for me to actually see the wires connected to the shift solenoid block. I was able to see what looked like the wire harness near the end but thats about all other than the 2 wires I posted bout.. I really enjoy learning new things about these cars. Now knowing we have 3 different horns improves my chances of having the correct horns. I believe I have the original horn sound heads but. The trumpits were gone. These were then installed in front of the radiator on the fence support with the original mounts but no u bolts. Then the fence was cut to slide a short trumpit thru them. So they stuck out the front of the fins. It was an odd look. I'm not sure if this was an option or not. So I have 2 sets of horn mounts and 2 sets of horn heads and a set of normal long and short trumpits. The 2 short odd trumpits are about 16 and 18 inches long and maybe 2 1/2 inches round at the outside end where the sound exits. Never tried them either. I bet its a high pitched squeek.

Hi Jim,

I believe you're right. I zoomed up the image to 600% and it's evident that the wires are there, parallel to each other, and then sent off at a right angle to the driver's side.

Good eyes, Jim!

--Tom

Hi Gary,

Since you mention it, I HAVE seen the brass elbow fittings with the drilled, tapped, and inserted bolt to restrict vacuum. In fact, in my treasure trove of 1000's of downloads regarding re-assembling my Cord, I found a picture of them. I think these were on EBay. I had forgotten that I had the images. I wonder what additional tidbits that I thought were a good idea I have forgotten also!

These adaptations look easy to perform, but I DO like the ball valve option. I'll decide when it's time to make the decision: Lowe's is 3 minutes away, and they have the ball valves available.

Cords: Curiouser and curiouser and even MORE curiouser!

--Tom

Jim I had no idea 3 different horns were used on the Cord. Kind of figures seeing there are so many parts that had different parts. Sounds odd but thats what I see now about the horns. Can you explain what these horns were or how to determine what is correct. I have a set I purchased some time back from a member.

Please take another look at the solenoid box, I think all the wires are there. It appears the bullet connectors are in place and the wires are bent at 90 degrees towards the rear of the car. if you look close you can see one at the rear of the solenoid box bending towards the drivers side of the car.

Also I think the horns are correct. Remember there were three different horns used thru the production run.

Tom I believe a member here makes a special vacuum adapter that fits on the shift cylinder hoses. It has what looks like an allen screw in the body of it. I guess your supposed to turn it in to reduce the vacuum to the cylinder but not really sure bout this. I have seen several sets listed on ebay.

Hi,

Since this car has apparently been converted to 12-volt, I wonder if there is a bank of modern relays that are functioning in lieu of the original relays. I considered doing this myself, but with sealed 6-volt relays. If so, they are not shown in any pix that I have seen.

I like the ball valve idea for the vacuum lines--I think 1509A will have that added feature when I reassemble it this spring and summer.

--Tom

Gary, the ball valves are used to restrict vacuum on the main shift cylinder.
This is said to reduce clunks while shifting, something I have yet to try.
Was also puzzled by the missing wiring on the solenoids.

Pat how would I know if my horns are correct? What tells you these pictured are wrong.

Note the dual exhaust system also, wrong horns, and S/C air cleaner. I have a S/C Phaeton I am working on that also has dual exhaust. Must have been a thing to do some time back on these cars...

Its get more interesting all the time. I'm not seeing the radiator catch can in the pic but I do feel that black can is oil for something. See what looks like a brass level indicator on the side. Also noted the solenoid pack does not have all the wires connected to it. Looks like only 2 wires connected to it. Also whats with the ball valves on the vacuum lines fromt e solenoid pack to the shift cylinder???
The finally I see an interesting place to collect enough exhaust heat to make the auto choke function. See it off the drivers side exhaust pipe just inboard of the fence. Might very well be converted to 12 volts too. Still a very nice looking cord.

Hi Tim,

Interesting info. If this car is in fact a 36, and not the 36 serial number plate attached by someone to a 37, then the mystery of the location of the taillights is even more engaging.

Here are more pix of this car. It appears to have been converted to 12-volt with an alternator and what looks like a ceramic ignition resistor on the right firewall. It has modern driving lights and turn signals on the front. There's what might be a coolant overflow canister in front of the radiator.

Members--any more info ?????????????????????????????????????????????

--Tom

Hello all: I have 2593A as a 36 Westchester; engine FB 524; CMC # C 90 1356; the CMC number is a made up number; supercharged pipes added to a non- supercharged car.

Really interesting question. I recall reading something about this some time back. Lets see what gets talked about here before I post something thats wrong about lights were found both inside and outside on some cars. This car is a nicely finished car. Almost looks like Jays 1936 Cord too.

Hi,

I have been interested in these photographs for some time. They are images of a nicely restored Westchester sedan (stated to be an 810 1937 Cord 810 Westchester, s/n 2593A, engine no. FB524) that was at one time for sale at Gullwing Motors. The engine is normally-aspirated and the external pipes are add-ons. The car is fitted with seat belts.

Of course, if the serial number in fact states 810, and not 812, the car is a 36, not a 37. In either event, I could find no reference to serial number 2593A in either 810 or 812 listings.

What caught my eye are the taillights. The taillights are not in the trunk lid, but rather are mounted outboard of the trunk, like a trunk-back sedan.

Well, I thought maybe in 1937 Cord started to place the taillights outside of the trunk lid, perhaps using body panels pre-stamped for the trunk-back. So I googled Cord Westchester and looked at pages and pages of Cord photos to see if I could find a similar construction. No luck.

What I DID find is that the Graham Hollywood consistently had its taillights mounted outboard and not in the trunk. I also found an image of a barn-find Hupmobile Skylark whose taillights ARE in the trunk lid.

So, does anyone know what the factory did with the taillight location? Is the Westchester in the attached photos correct? Is this car possibly a Graham Hollywood body that was converted to a Cord? Could it have been a trunk-back that someone cut off the welded-on trunk and converted the body to a slant-back? Does anyone know or own a Westchester with the taillights mounted outside the trunk lid?

I would be happy to own this car, but if I did own, it, I would like to know what it is.

Cords: Curiouser and curiouser!

--Tom