Copper brake lines

Hi,

Thank you for all for replying, I appreciate your insight and experience!

I am sure that lines made of steel (painted or plated) will be safe. I also had a look at the [url:gvayaop0]http://www.brakequip.com/[/url:gvayaop0] site. From the details about the EziBend? / CuNiFer lines, it looks as if the copper alloy is about twice as strong as the copper plumbing lines. They also have a tech section with good info: [url:gvayaop0]http://brakequip.com/pdf_library.html[/url:gvayaop0]

All these tubes spec a minimum bend radius that the installer must deal with. The tube should be discarded if a tighter bend is made, not just un bent. This is true even if there is no kink. In addition, the type of flare a tube can be used with depends on the finish of the tube. The modern tubes are finished outside such that double flare is used.

I have no comfort with the use of stainless unless it is done in a top notch shop. The double flare will crack as it is bent double at the flare. When the crack opens, no brakes. I will let the pros do this work. The metal needs to be crimped, annealed (heat treated), then have the double flare completed. In our application it is also the wrong color unless plated/painted.

I can?t agree that copper lines produced today are good in this application. Perhaps the wall thickness of the original lines were greater (?). Perhaps the alloy was stronger(?). In a panic stop you will be above working strength of today?s copper lines.

My take away is that the EziBend? / CuNiFer lines offer the correct look and are safe. I will plan to go that way.

Regards,
Tom

Copper works fine - they were copper to begin with on the 1930 Franklin and Dad replaced them with copper back in 1979 and they have been going strong ever since with many many thousands of miles.

(a) The original 1930s brake line was a heavy-wall tubing, not a fuel line.

(b) I drove Cords for decades with the original copper brake lines, including emergency stops, with never a problem.

(c) Cunifer/EZBend is the way to go today.

(d) IMHO, a car that is judged and has brake lines other than copper color should lose points.

Hi,

Well, I picked up a coil of 1/4" nickel copper brake line from my NAPA store. It was a warehouse item: I ordered it at 10:00 and they had at my branch store by 2:00. Clearly it is a readily available item, and not very expensive.

I took a little time to play with the material. Using my super-duper Eastwood flaring tool, I ran a half dozen double flares with no rejects and no problems. The material works like butter. I also bent a few fairly shallow radii both by hand and with a bender--no problems.

Finally, after a little on-line research, I'm convinced. No more steel brake lines; this car and ones to follow will be plumbed with nickel copper tubing.

Thank you to all who contributed to my education in this matter.

--Tom

Both copper and stainless steel tubeing comes in differant wall thicknes. I have used both in the electrical power plants for 30 years. Its true that stainless is really tuff to bend. Try bending 1/2 and above of that stuff.. It takes two men and a couple of small boys to bend it...

Just to clear the air Ezibend and CuNifer are one of the same. At the site I posted before you can buy rolls and put your ends where you want them.
CORDially Mike

Hi,

I love this Forum.

Looks like I'll be making a trip to my NAPA store for CuNiFer brake line material!

--Tom

CuNiFer tubing is the way to go.
It may be a bit of a problem to find locally however ?
I like this material much better than standard steel lines.
CuNiFer is also very easy to bend & double flare.

I have also used Stainess Steel tubing.
And Stainless Steel tubing is a real pain to work with, bend, and also double flare.
And it looks so out of place on an older car from an originality standpoint.

I'm not sure how copper brake lines got such a bad rap. Growing up in the 40's and 50's my dad had mostly pre-war Grahams that all had copper lines. Never burst a single one, lots of leaky master and wheel cylinders etc. however.
The problem these days is even if you wanted to replace copper with copper you have a difficult time finding 1/4 in copper lines. However in the states your local NAPA store should have available something called NiCopp tubing (which is a copper nickel and iron alloy) in 1/4 in. diameter various length pieces with flares and fittings that are the same threads as the originals. It has a light copper hue and can be bent with your fingers.

All of my cars restored received CuNiFer CN102 ("Cunifer 10") brakelines and also any other petrol or hydroulic lines where made of the same material in different sizes. They are easy to work on tight bends and perfect flares, they don't rust and need no paint , they look like aged copper and are safe.
One word on painting steel brakelines : in europe they will be a fail on MOT ! Best regards from Switzerland, Philipp

About 20 years ago, when we were restoring our 1929 L-29 Cord, a friend of mine in Michigan got me some copper plated steel brake lines to use on our car. The steel line had the needed strength and the copper plating made it look original on the outside. I don't know whether this type of line is still available or not but I will try and find out.
Murray

I have copper brake lines on my L-29 Cord and have had no trouble. I replaced the copper lines on my 35 Auburn with Ezibend lines. They, as the name implies, are very easy to bend and will not rust. They also have a copper hue to them. If one goes to brakequip.com you can read about these lines. Of more concern to me is not the hard brake lines made of copper but the brake hoses that on many cars are way too old!
CORDially Mike

Hi Tom,

I raised this copper brake line issue a couple of years ago in the Forum. I was stunned to find that copper was used as a brake line material, and I asked the Forum if that was standard issue, or if some hacker who lacked the necessary tools had improvised with copper--a frowned-upon practice to my knowledge.

I had responses that told me that indeed copper was used as the original brake line material. I also got a number of Forum replies and emails from Cord owners saying that they had replaced theirs with modern steel brake lines. One response, however, said basically to trust the Cord engineers' decision to use copper of the appropriate thickness and alloy.

Engineers or not, I don't trust copper brake lines. My sense of trust doesn't go that far in view of the several engineering under-designs that are part of the 810-812 Cord. So I am in the process of bending up new steel ones for my Cord.

Perhaps the BEST response I received was to install modern steel brake lines and then PAINT them copper color! This preserves appearance and upgrades safety--a no-lose situation.

BTW, for a few years I used cheap-ass auto-parts store brake line benders and flaring tools to make my own lines. Those tools were worth exactly what I paid for them, and I threw out a lot of ruined tubing. Finally I threw out the tools also. Eastwood.com sells a terrific brake line double-flare tool (Item #25304) that I HIGHLY recommend. It's not cheap at $250, but it works like a production tool ought to. After you make your first flare you won't care about the price. I have made dozens of flares with ZERO failures or rejects. Eastwood also has very good quality bending tools, sometimes sold as part of a package deal with the the flaring tool. You can see their tools at work on youtube.

--Tom

I have a follow on brake question for the group...

What should be done with lines in the brake system?

As I understand things, the hydraulics are made up of 1/4 .035 wall copper line and flex hoses. It looks like the pedal/master cylinder has about a 6:1 mechanical advantage and the master has about 1 sq/inch. This suggests that in a panic, a person might develop 1000 psi or more in the system. That is right at the working strength of the copper lines.

There is a margin here between working and burst strength, but some of that will be reduced by bending and flaring of the tube. It is difficult to figure out if the system has much/any margin because so much depends on the quality of the work done bending and flaring the lines.

Do many people keep the stock copper lines on cars that are driven? Are modern flex lines produced that look the same as stock? Are these sort of changes frowned upon when a car is judged?

Thanks,
Tom Hussey