Shifting Problem

Steve,
Based on these two videos and the ones earlier your neutral switch is not working properly and/or the brass tabs on the solenoid bank are not making contact.. I'll send you a couple of artilces from the Newsletter on these items.
Jim

Hi Steve, can you send your email address to me?
I could not add the printed sheets in the Forums that go with the test procedure.
My email address is ......... [email protected]
I'm located in Australia.
Cheers,
Terry

Jim, Pat and Terry:

Thank you so much for the advice and suggestions. We will be looking into all of these recommendations that you have made.

A couple of days ago I made some more videos. Clearly we have more than a 4th gear problem, as Jim said. Here are some more videos:
Second Gear Problem
and  
More Second Gear problem

Have a great Day

Steve 

Jim,
Thank you for the information and conversation on the phone!

Terry,
Thank you for the suggestions and time saving test procedure!
Steve

Pat, Thank you for the suggestions!

Hi Steve and Pat. After a lot of time spent in utter frustration I made up a test procedure for the gear selector switch using test lights connected to the various end terminals and followed the attached contacts sequencing diagram. This method is much the same as yours Pat but gives a visual feedback for each step.



 

Electrical test for cross shift switch: 

Disconnect wires from cross shift switch 
Disconnect Main shift cylinder from cross shift arm      

       2nd & 3rd
Arm in center position: continuity between:
Green with red tracer & yellow with black tracer
White & green & red with green tracer          
 
   1st & Reverse
Arm in right position: continuity between:
Green & green with red tracer
White & yellow with black tracer & red with green tracer                    

     4th
Arm in left position: continuity between:
Green with red tracer & red with green tracer
White & yellow with black tracer & green

 

With all wires disconnected from solenoid bank and cross shift do the following test:


Test column shift switch Test #1

Connect power to red wire:

Gear shift in first. Green & black
Gear shift in reverse. Green & black
Gear shift in second. Yellow with black tracer
Gear shift in third. Yellow with black tracer
Gear shift in fourth. Yellow & red with green tracer
Gear shift in neutral. Yellow with black tracer


Test column shift switch Test #2

Connect power to Green with red tracer:

Gear shift in first. Blue wire
Gear shift in reverse. Brown wire
Gear shift in second. Brown wire
Gear shift in third. Blue wire 
Gear shift in fourth. Brown wire
Gear shift in neutral. White wire

 

Hi Steve,
Your car look great!

The video is very helpful!!!  In watching the shifting video the car is not shifting properly. When you try to go to 2nd the shift pulls slightly back but never comes out of 1st gear. The same thing happens when you try to go from 3rd to 4th. The lever pulls back slightly but never gets out of gear and into neutral. 

In the beginning of the video the car is in neutral. the shift lever is centered side to side and front to rear. When a Cord shifts from one gear to another it always tries to go to neutral first, then into the desired gear. In going from 1st to 2nd the vacuum should pull the lever rearward, out of 1st and the springs in the cross shifter pulls the lever to the center position. Once the cross shift switch says the lever is in neutral the vacuum will pull the lever rearward into second. In your video it looks like the vacuum starts to pull the lever rearward out of 1st but it doesn't pull it back far enough to get out of 1st and into neutral. The same thing is happening when you try to get out of 3rd gear. 

All of this tell me there are two potential problems so we can start with the simple one. Put the car in neutral so the cross shift in centered front to rear and side to side like in the beginning of the video. Disconnect the main shift cylinder from the cross shift by pulling the cotter pin and the clevis pin. keep your hands away from things and start eh car and place the selector switch on the column in Neutral. The rod on the main shift cylinder will find it's neutral position and sit there not moving. Carefully try pushing the shaft rearward. It should move slightly and then push forward. Now try moving it forward, again it should move slightly the move itself rearward and stop. The movement front to rear without the cylinder moving it back to neutral should be about 1/4" or so. If it is more like 1/2" then there is a problem in the cylinder. 

With the cylinder in the neutral position (engine is still running so you know you are in the neutral position) you should be able to slip the pin back into the cross shift lever. If not adjust the clevis so the pin slips in easily. My guess is this is out of adjustment and may solve your problem - at least one of them.

Also try starting in neutral and shifting into 4th gear and see if it goes. Since you are not coming out of 3rd gear we doing know if 4th works.

Sorry this may be a long and basic explanation. But I don't know how much you or others reading this understand shifting.

If you have questions give me a call at 610-417-0726. 

CORDially
Jim

Jim,
Thank you for the information! I am in Colorado. I recently purchased a 1936 Cord 810 that was in the Gateway Colorado Museum for a number of years. I saw this vehicle at the Gateway Museum and acquired it at the Broad Arrow Auction in Monterrey.  I joined the ACD club and will start checking out the resources that you and Tim Gilmartin have mentioned. Here is a photo of the Cord. 
Photo of Cord

The car typically shifts through all the gears, except for fourth.  We took your advice and removed the cowling so we could see what is happening.  It looks like the shifter moves very slightly when you depress the clutch after shifting into fourth gear, but does not engage properly.   Also, the chrome fingertip shifter does not seem to hold nicely in the 4th gear position, like it does in the other gears.  Here is a video demonstrating the shifting:
Shifting 1936 Cord

We are not sure if the problem is electrical, or perhaps insufficient vacuum?  I spoke briefly with a restorer here in Colorado (Mark Clayton) and the initial suspect was the electrical shifting switch in the steering column.  Now that the cowling is removed, is there a procedure to check that the switch is working properly by checking electrical continuity for the various gear positions? Any advice on where to focus our efforts is greatly appreciated.  Here is a summary of our current status:
Summary October 22

Thanks for your help and guidance!
Best Regards
Steve 

Hi Steve, Congratulations on your "New" Cord. First question is where are you located?
For not going into 4th gear. first step would be to pull the front bumper and transmission cover off and see what is going on when you try to go into 4th gear.  Does the cross shift lever move over to the right side of the car? Does it try to move rearward to get into 4th gear?  Does it just sit in neutral? does it not come out of the gear it was in previously. All of these questions point to different potential problems.There are a lot of potential problems and with out additional information you will be going on a lot of wild goose chases. 

If you are a new Cord owner you should get the Transmission Manual from the ACD Club. You can get this on the club store on eBay. Second would be the Service bulletins that were put out by Auburn Automobile. A copy of these can be obtained from the Auburn Cord Duesenberg Museum.  automobilemuseum.org  They have it in their store.

Most of all you need to joint the ACD Club if you are not already a member. This is where you will find all the experience on these cars, both working on them and driving them. THere is a link at the top of this page.

Let me know what you find when you pull the transmission cover and try shifting into 4th gear and we can point you towards the possible problem.

Jim

Hi Tim
I am a first time Cord owner, and cannot get my 1936 810 to shift into fourth gear, everything else works. You mentioned a lot of resources in your binder. How could we find some of these resources, starting with "Company service bulletin #6, Jan. 29, 1936."?

I am new to this, and looking for any help or information. Thanks in advance!

Steve

Hi Ace: I joined Cord World in 1990, and have accumulated knowledge and opinions since then. As the pundits say:nothing better than a Cord when it's right, nothing worse than a Cord when it's wrong. Also: there are two types of Cord 810/812 owners...those that have had shifting problems, and those that will have shifting problems. Glad to see you now have membership in the first group, and are now looking forward in joining the second group!!
I have made up my own shop manual for my Cord 810 by accumulating articles, diagrams, etc. from the Newsletter, club members, etc. I have separate sections for engine, transmission, brakes, etc. it is now three and a half inches thick.
Last year, my car was down and out for five months because I could not get second, third, and neutral. I called, emailed every Cord expert from Henry Portz, Ethan Turner, Stan, and Jim OBrien, and more. I learned a lot about the whole system. Too boil this down to a few sentences: I am using a modern cross shifter switch (Gilliland); it gave faithful performance for 18 years. A restorer friend here in Colorado (Mark Clayton) suggested we take that switch apart. Sure enough; out of three small internal springs, one was bent. Yup, it controlled second, third, and neutral. Switch now fixed, no problems since.
I now have made a separate binder for Cord shifting problems and fixes.
Included in this binder:Company service bulletin #6, Jan. 29, 1936.
Tech talk, Newsletter, 1991 #1, pg. 17,18.
Tech talk, Newsletter, 2003, #7, pg. 15,16,17.
Cord trans. Wiring diagram , #4, Stan G.
Interlock switch diagram, Stan. g.
Newsletter, shift solenoid diagram,1998,#2, pg.8.
Shift arm diagram, #26, Stan.
Newsletter tech talk, 2002,#6, Ethan Turner.
Cord shift schematic #4, Stan.
Cross shift data, Newsletter, 2001,#10, pg.14.
Cord shifting, Newsletter,2001,#9, pg.14.
Cord curios, Newsletter,1987,#9, pg. 16,17.
Cord shifting,Newsletter,1993,#10, pg.15.
Cord shifting, Newsletter,2003,#4, pg.15.
Of course, use the Club's DVD to access all the Newsletter articles.
I hope this helps. Good luck!!
CORDially, Tim.

Back on September 30, 2007, Bill Hummel said, "Once it (his transmission) is fixed, I would like to make a 1-minute video of the transmission going through all of the gears. This would make a great instructional video that we can post on this website."

Bill, did you ever make this video?

Thanks,
Albert

Guys,

Thanks to all of you for your information and thanks to this website. We have all four forward gears + reverse today. We took off the wires, did voltage tests and cleaned every connection. It appears to us that the problem might have been a solenoid that was stuck. As was suggested by a caller, we tested all four and had one that was sluggish at first, but then began to click right in. We will do a few more tests, then put things back together.

While on the rack changing oil I noticed the painter had missed strips on the bottom rolled edges of the body and front fenders, so will be taking it back to get those finished as well.

Once again thanks to everyone for the advice and a special thanks to Bill for keeping this site up and going, thus giving some many of us ignorant newcomers a chance to get educated by much wiser vets.

Ace Collins

That's right Jim.

Since the arm was bent, I disconnected it and I manually move the shift lever forward and back in order to get my Beverly on and off trailers.

I have new parts sitting in the trunk but I have not replaced them yet. This is one of those "Kids. don't try this at home" projects. I am going to wait until Brad Waken drops by in order to assist me.

Once it is fixed, I would like to make a 1-minute video of the transmission going through all of the gears. This would make a great instructional video that we can post on this website.

Hi Ace,

Not know the history of the car I would suggest you go thru the entire set up of the shifting system. This will first ensure that things are at least set up properly and second give you a good understanding of how the system works. It's very possible that when the was in the body shop things got "out of adjustment" and combined with not being driven for a year or so the contacts are probably tarnished and not working well. Make sure you have good electrical connections all around, especially on the solinoid bank.

When the car doesn't shift try moving the shift selector all the way over to fourth and then back to 1st/reverse or into second and see if this works.

Try removing the front bumper and transmission cover and leaving them off till you are sure everything is working (including the test drives). If there is one place to start looking I would suggest the cross shift switch. The cross shift has to move to the left side(of the car) to get first and reverse. It stays in the center for second and third and moves to the right side for fourth. If the cross shift switch doesn't see the shift in the center it won't move into second, third.

Let us know how you make out after trying these ideas.

Jim

P.S. Bill If you look at your photo the cross shift is all the way to the left (bottom of the photo) and forward

67cat wrote: My 810 spent a year in the body shop without being driven. When I brought the car home on Thursday, it would only shift into first and reverse. Ace

I barely know what a Bendix transmission looks like, but here's my two cents... Sound like the cross-shift mechanism is not working.

My Beverly needs a little work as you know. I have to manually shift it back and forth to get it on and off a trailer. 1st and reverse are simply back and forth, no sideways movement needed. So I think it is something to do with the cross-shift mechanism. WHY it is not working is not something I would know.

Ask Brad Waken or Henry Portz or Jim O'Brien.

Below you can see the shift arm. 1st and reverse are in the same plane. Front and back. It's the cross-shifter that takes you to 2nd and 3rd.

My 810 spent a year in the body shop without being driven. When I brought the car home on Thursday, it would only shift into first and reverse. In the other shift positions the car remained in neutral. Later that night I moved it into the shed and could shift into all gears. Yet when I put the car on the road again I only had first and reverse. Every once in a while we can get three or even four forward gears in a sitting position, but as soon as we pull it out, nothing but neutral after first.

I know the body shop power sprayed the engine and transmission to remove dust a few months ago. I know I told them not to do that, but alas . . . After the power spraying nothing worked, but the next day I tried reverse and first and they were both good. I did not attempt any other gears at that time, assuming they were good as well.

So, as a novice I have a number of questions.
1. We are getting power to the clutch switch, but could this still be problem? And if that is the case why would 1st and Reverse be so strong and dependable?
2. We seem to be getting the proper voltage to the boxes located at the transmission while going through the shifts, so what else do we need to check here?

Thanks in advance. By the way, this car was shifting perfectly before is sabbatical at the body shop.

Ace