Skip to main content

Ethanol makes my cars inoperable

  • Tom Georgeson
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Registered
More
18 Jun 2013 17:39 #25453 by Tom Georgeson
Replied by Tom Georgeson on topic Airtex fuel pump
Just got a reply from Airtex Products and they say that the E8902 is a diaphragm pump and that it is combatable with all modern fuels. I will still use it as it only puts out 2.5-4.0 PSI while the other one (E8011) puts out 5.0-8.0 PSI, too high for our cars.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Josh Malks
  • Offline
  • ACD Club Past President
  • Registered
More
18 Jun 2013 02:16 #25451 by Josh Malks
Replied by Josh Malks on topic Ethanol makes my cars inoperable
Yes, I have thermostats. Don't remember the exact circumstances, but if the engine had just been stopped heat could indeed flow into the thermostat housings from the exhaust manifolds for a few minutes. Next time I run the car I will check more carefully and report before I take any action.

Josh B. Malks
810 2087A
ACD Club Life Member
ACD Newsletter editor
Past president
www.automaven.com

Check out CORD COMPLETE at www.cordcomplete.com

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Tom Georgeson
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Registered
More
18 Jun 2013 01:11 #25449 by Tom Georgeson
Replied by Tom Georgeson on topic High temp
Josh,
I meant to ask if you have thermostats in your housings? Is your engine running when you put the infra-red gun on them? Could you be getting reading off your exhaust manifold that are slewing the reading? The thermostat housings are very close to the exhaust manifolds. It would seem that if the water in your top tank is 150-160 degrees you shouldn't worry!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Tom Georgeson
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Registered
More
18 Jun 2013 01:02 #25448 by Tom Georgeson
Replied by Tom Georgeson on topic Airtex Fuel Pump
Josh,
I was told that it was a piston pump but looking at their info on it, it doesn't say that it is. I email them that question and will let all know when I find out. I like their E8902 as it's pressure is 2.5-4.0 PSI while their pump E8011 is 5.0=8.0 PSI, which is way too high.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Josh Malks
  • Offline
  • ACD Club Past President
  • Registered
More
17 Jun 2013 21:36 #25446 by Josh Malks
Replied by Josh Malks on topic Ethanol makes my cars inoperable
The Airtex pump, and all the identical others sold under different brand names, is a diaphragm pump. Check Tech Talk in the Newsletter you should be getting any day now.

And I would be careful about the dry intake manifold. After years of pondering I closed off the hoses between the thermostat housings and the intake manifold, as well as the hose from the manifold to the water pump. And the little drain hole that Tom mentions. My engine temp does appear to have dropped an average of about 10 degrees. That's good. But with the dash temp gauge at 160 after a long run last year, I used an infra-red gun to check temps. All parts of the cylinder heads and the radiator top tank were in the 150s to 160s. That's good too. But the thermostat housings (both) registered over 250 degrees! Don't know what's going on in there, but something doesn't like the dead end created when all the outlets are blocked. Remember that in stock form the water is always moving -- either thru the manifold or thru the radiator pipes. Opinions solicited.

Josh B. Malks
810 2087A
ACD Club Life Member
ACD Newsletter editor
Past president
www.automaven.com

Check out CORD COMPLETE at www.cordcomplete.com

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Tom Georgeson
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Registered
More
17 Jun 2013 18:38 #25440 by Tom Georgeson
Replied by Tom Georgeson on topic Fuel pump
Hi Mike,
I'm not sure what you want to know. The pump I had been running was a 6 volt Carter rotary pump. When it quit working I started asking around. I found out that others had problems with them too. They seem to think that the rotary got gummed up and stopped turning. They had gone to the Airtex Products pump and were quite happy with it. It really puts out the fuel. Hope this answer your questions?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Tom Georgeson
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Registered
More
17 Jun 2013 18:25 #25439 by Tom Georgeson
Replied by Tom Georgeson on topic Piston type fuel pump
Hi Mike,
I was running a Carter electric pump for a number of years and it quit on me. I talked to others and found that they had the same problem. Seems that the rotary part of the pump would get gummed up or some thing and stop rotating. It was recommended that I use a 6 volt piston pump (Part #E8902) made by Airtex Products. It puts out 2.5-4.0 PSI. My local parts store couldn't get it for me so I order it by going to their web site. It really puts out the fuel.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • mikespeed35
  • Offline
  • ACD Club Life Member
  • Registered
More
15 Jun 2013 03:25 #25424 by mikespeed35
Replied by mikespeed35 on topic Ethanol makes my cars inoperable
Hi Tom, I have not heard of a piston fuel pump. Can you fill me in?
CORDially Mike

Mike Huffman

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Tom Georgeson
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Registered
More
14 Jun 2013 19:07 #25420 by Tom Georgeson
Replied by Tom Georgeson on topic ethanol gas
I agree with Josh's suggestions. However I had a Carter rotary fuel pump which stopped pumping. Seems that the vane just stopped turning which I was told had happened to others running this pump. I replaced it with electric 6 Volt piston pump from Airtex Products which produces 2.5-4 PSI. Part # isE8902. Additionally, I would also recommend that you block off all water to the intake manifold. I don't drive my Cord in the winter so I don't need heat to the carb. In doing it don't overlook the small hole in the bottom surface of the manifold. You can tap it and install plug.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Tom_Parkinson
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Registered
More
14 Jun 2013 17:38 #25415 by Tom_Parkinson
Replied by Tom_Parkinson on topic Ref: Ethanol problem
Hi Josh,

Thank you for your reply, which is very much appreciated and respected.

As my Cord is not running yet (It's ONLY been 63 years since 1950 when it arrived at my dad's house on a hook!), I am planning proactively.

My current experiences, which are establishing my learning curve here, are occuring principally with my 1940 LaSalle. My 37 Buick has less of a problem along these lines, as its fuel pump is on the other side of the engine from the exhaust manifold. But on a hot day, even it asks for a 15 minute break once in a while.

Finding a cure (or a working management protocol) for issues with these cars should help me have my Cord's fuel system adjusted, modified, or whatever it takes, right from its initial start-up. Installing a Carter electric pump, insulating, and re-routing will certainly be easier now than later.

It is my goal to have the Cord self-propelling by the Reunion. I'd like to be comfortable with the knowledge that the potential fuel issues from low-boiling-point ethanol will be alleviated.

Thank you again for your reply, and thank to ALL who have replied. The Club and the Forum asre great sources of info!

--Tom

[edit note]: I just ordered the Carter 6V rotary vane fuel pump.

With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.

Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International

See pix of 1509A here: mbcurl.me/YCSE

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Josh Malks
  • Offline
  • ACD Club Past President
  • Registered
More
14 Jun 2013 16:12 #25414 by Josh Malks
Replied by Josh Malks on topic Ethanol makes my cars inoperable
I'm with Mike, altho I have only one car. There is too much doom and gloom going on, in my opinion. So I speak only for one Cord. Only a few minor concessions:

Rerouted the gas line under the hood to keep it away from the exhaust manifold as much as possible.

Use a Carter rotary vane electric fuel pump, installed at the gas tank.

Bypass the top-mounted fuel pump (it's nothing but a heat exchanger anyway).

Added a phenolic "gasket" under the carb.

Driven many thousands of miles since ethanol became the norm in California 10 years ago, without many problems attributable to fuel. And if it does have a problem with percolation, vapor lock, overheating, etc., stop and let it cool down. It's older than many of the drivers, for heaven's sake!

Drive more, wring hands less.

Josh B. Malks
810 2087A
ACD Club Life Member
ACD Newsletter editor
Past president
www.automaven.com

Check out CORD COMPLETE at www.cordcomplete.com

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • mikespeed35
  • Offline
  • ACD Club Life Member
  • Registered
More
14 Jun 2013 02:45 #25410 by mikespeed35
Replied by mikespeed35 on topic Ethanol makes my cars inoperable
I drive several cars from 1913 to 1967 all over the country with virtually no problem with any fuel I buy, mostly all with ethenal.
CORDially Mike

Mike Huffman

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Greg Frownfelter
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Registered
More
11 Jun 2013 19:52 #25393 by Greg Frownfelter
Replied by Greg Frownfelter on topic Ethanol makes my cars inoperable
try adding a little deisel fuel to the fuel
trans mission fluid seems to work also
this raises the boiling point and helps with the vapor lock
it has worked for me
greg

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Tom_Parkinson
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Registered
More
11 Jun 2013 19:38 #25391 by Tom_Parkinson
Replied by Tom_Parkinson on topic Ethanol makes my cars inoperable
Hi Justin,

I checked the site sans the extension at the end of the url. "pure-gas.org" allowed me to search by state, and I found half a dozen sources within 25 miles of Niles, MI, in both Indiana (including the BP that you refered me to) and Michigan. Mostly they are marine-grade gas, which is fine by me, and I don't know--or much care--about the price. I suspect that the classic car hobby will be actively searching out marine-gas suppliers as the ethanol content is increased in our fuels.

I'll have the LaSalle's electric pump run the tank dry (The modern cars will run OK on this stuff), and I'll make a gas can run to one of the stations to bring home 10 gallons to get me going.

As for other contributions to the management of this matter, I have added insulation to the supply and delivery side of the fuel line, insulated the exhaust manifold near the fuel pump, insulated the fuel pump, and--what the heck, I was all greasy by then anyway--pulled the distributor to repair the vacuum advance, (even though the engine was not running hot), installed new points and a new condensor.

I have sketched out an fuel line cooling coil for possible addition between the grille and radiator in front of the engine compartment. Hopefully having pure gas will not make this extreme step necessary!

Thanks to all who have replied to this issue. Ethanol as an issue will not be going away, and our hobby will have to be able to respond to it.

--Tom

With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.

Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International

See pix of 1509A here: mbcurl.me/YCSE

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • silverghost
  • Offline
  • Premium Member
  • Registered
More
11 Jun 2013 15:52 #25390 by silverghost
Replied by silverghost on topic Ethanol makes my cars inoperable
I find that in the Philly suburban area it is virtually impossible to find Any available fuel witout 10 % ethanol~~~

With the new federally imposed mandate the ethanol percentage will soon be going up to 15% !

This is really becomming a major operational issue for me also.

I find that the information on that ethanol free fuel wesite is not at all up to date~~~or accurate !

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Justin Kerns
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Registered
More
11 Jun 2013 15:39 #25389 by Justin Kerns
Replied by Justin Kerns on topic Ethanol makes my cars inoperable
Hi Tom,

Have you tried this website? It maps ethanol free gas stations. Zoom in to your area and then click on one of the blue pins to see the details. Often times there may be only one grade that is ethanol free. In my quick look I saw a BP in South Bend that has 93 octane ethanol free. Might be worth checking out.

[url:1fkuifw0]http://pure-gas.org[/url:1fkuifw0]

Justin

Justin
1932 Auburn 12-160A Sedan
1933 Auburn 12-161A Sedan

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Tom_Parkinson
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Registered
More
11 Jun 2013 15:00 #25388 by Tom_Parkinson
Replied by Tom_Parkinson on topic Ethanol makes my cars inoperable
Hi,

Can't find any ethanol-free gasoline near South Bend, IN,/Niles, MI area. The closest thing to it that I found is the Niles Marathon, where the owner told me 1) virtually all gasoline is spiked with [i:sibzi788]some[/i:sibzi788] ethanol, and 2) his Marathon gas has no more than 2% ethanol in it.

I guess I'll insulate, insulate, and insulate, maybe buy a premium grade, and see where that takes me.

I HAVE installed a thicker insulation gasket under the carburetor in the LaSalle, as was advised by Cadillac way back when (40's?).

We'll see how it goes.

--Tom

With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.

Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International

See pix of 1509A here: mbcurl.me/YCSE

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Chris Summers
  • Offline
  • ACD Club Life Member
  • Registered
More
11 Jun 2013 02:59 #25382 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Ethanol makes my cars inoperable
There's a County Mark station in Angola, IN, where we fueled the ACD Museum's 1935 Auburn up with ethanol-free gas last weekend. I've toured extensively in that car, and have never heard it run so well.

It's 91-octane and was $4.81 a gallon (compared to $4.25 for unleaded regular)...but what price functional car?

Chris Summers
ACD Club
CCCA
H.H. Franklin Club

So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • auburnandyscar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Registered
More
11 Jun 2013 01:53 #25380 by auburnandyscar
Replied by auburnandyscar on topic Ethanol makes my cars inoperable
I know we have this fuel available in the Auburn area.you may have to set up an account with them.(I get mine from a friend that has a tank at his farm)

[urlhttp://www.countrymark.com/countrymark/Fuels/gasoline/ethanol-free.aspx[/url]

Sorry couldn't get the clickable link to work

Check out my build at:
www.1932auburnsedan.com

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • landmark
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Registered
More
10 Jun 2013 18:36 #25373 by landmark
Replied by landmark on topic Re: Ethanol makes my cars inoperable

Tom_Parkinson wrote: Hi,

I have two roadworthy pre-WW2 cars-a 40 Lasalle and a 37 Buick. My Cord will be roadworthy within the year. Both active cars have become virtually inoperable due to fuel boiling in the fuel pump and/or carburetor. Apparently around here in SW Michigan and North Central Indiana, we can't get real gasoline--instead we get gasohol cut 10% with ethanol. I have insulated the exhaust manifolds, installed heat shields, insulated supply and delivery fuel lines, and turned the ambient air ice-blue with cussing. The Boil-o-hol keeps on boiling.

The gasohol has a significantly lower boing point than real gasoline, and therein lies the problem. So I have some questions:

1) Does anyone know of a source of ethanol-free gasoline in SW Michigan/North-Central Indiana?

2) Would using a premium grade of gasohol help with the boiling problem?

3) Does anyone know of an additive that will raise the boiling point of the gasohol to a level more like real gasoline?

This problem is putting my continuation in the old car hobby at risk. I want drivable cars, not flower planters. Does anyone have a solution?

Thanks,

--Tom


Hello Tom,

have you insulated the carburetor (against the manifold/engineheat) itself too?
What will work is a plate of paper/phenolic sheets. In Germany the material is known as Pertinax another name is Paxoline.

Here is an Information Link in english language www.emsai.co.uk/pertinax-bakelit ... sheets.php

That (cut out) sheet will be mounted like the gasket, in addition to the gasket(s) between carb and intake-manifold. You can use a gasket as a template for to cut out the needed holes (Throat- and mounting-screw-holes).
Maybe, (because of the changed position/distance between carb and manifold/engine) the carburetor/throttle lever mechanism has to be adjusted.


Cheers

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Tom_Parkinson
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Registered
More
10 Jun 2013 17:37 #25372 by Tom_Parkinson
Ethanol makes my cars inoperable was created by Tom_Parkinson
Hi,

I have two roadworthy pre-WW2 cars-a 40 Lasalle and a 37 Buick. My Cord will be roadworthy within the year. Both active cars have become virtually inoperable due to fuel boiling in the fuel pump and/or carburetor. Apparently around here in SW Michigan and North Central Indiana, we can't get real gasoline--instead we get gasohol cut 10% with ethanol. I have insulated the exhaust manifolds, installed heat shields, insulated supply and delivery fuel lines, and turned the ambient air ice-blue with cussing. The Boil-o-hol keeps on boiling.

The gasohol has a significantly lower boing point than real gasoline, and therein lies the problem. So I have some questions:

1) Does anyone know of a source of ethanol-free gasoline in SW Michigan/North-Central Indiana?

2) Would using a premium grade of gasohol help with the boiling problem?

3) Does anyone know of an additive that will raise the boiling point of the gasohol to a level more like real gasoline?

This problem is putting my continuation in the old car hobby at risk. I want drivable cars, not flower planters. Does anyone have a solution?

Thanks,

--Tom

With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.

Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International

See pix of 1509A here: mbcurl.me/YCSE

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Powered by Kunena Forum