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W-24 Cylinder Duesenberg Gold Cup Raceboat Engine

  • Watercar007
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06 Apr 2015 23:48 #29397 by Watercar007
Replied by Watercar007 on topic Dodge Boats in Response to Silver Ghost
Regarding the Boats:

1. The "flying lady" is technically called the "Sea Nymph". Commonly thought of as a ?mermaid?, the figurehead is actually a water nymph. Well known sculptor- Russell G. Crook designed the solid nickel figure. Crook and Dodge wanted the piece to give even docked boats a feeling of speed and grace. It was the only production boat that featured a hood ornament

2. The Dodge Runabouts (not the Watercar model) from 1929 on...in the 21', 25', 25.5' and 28' models used the Duesenberg steering wheel / horn assembly and clum switch assembly exactly as featured in the J model cars. The three knobs control the throttle, spark advance and lights. The cord shifter that comes through the dash controls forward and reverse. The instrument panel had nothing to do with Duesenberg cars but was very special and specially designed by Horace. The dash also featured a Stewart Warner "Pass a Lite" cigar lighter.

3. The "Watercar" model was built in Detroit before Horace's mother built him the factory in Newport News. This was before the Cord/Dodge partnership and the boats featured predominately OX-5 or 4 cyl Dodge car motors. The Watercar model were sold like automobiles, through Dodge Brothers automobile dealers.

4. Garwood made one (1) model in the Newport News factory after Dodge stopped using it - it was called the "Ensign" model (production boat).

5. Regarding the design of the boats and how Lycoming engines were used: In 1930, with the help of the world famous naval architect, George Crouch, Dodge moved to the newly built Horace E. Dodge Boat and Plane Corporation, a state of the art boat building plant in Newport News, Virginia, which at the time was billed at the time as the ?world?s largest motor boat plant?. Horace had the financial wherewithal to buy whatever he thought he needed, and this led to the partnership between Dodge boats and Auburn-Cord-Duesenberg. This collaboration resulted in some of the most beautiful boats ever built. Horace approached E.L. Cord to supply engines from the ACD subsidiary Lycoming. As Dodge was one of the very few entities able to pay cash, Cord agreed. One of the correct colors used on the Dodge Lycoming 8cyl engines is a similar olive green found in the Auburn and Packard cars (contact for formula).

We recently wrote an article regarding the history of the Dodge Plant for a well known antique boat magazine (Classic Boat). I also own 3 post 1930 Dodge Runabouts (16, 21 and 25) and two pre 1930 22' Dodge Watercar Models and a handful of extra Lycoming marine engines (one which I pulled out of a boat earlier today). All very original pieces of history with little to no modification from original spec. You can see more regarding Dodge boats and the use of the Duesenberg components and Lycoming engines by visiting:

[url:2of66kkl]http://www.dodgeboats.com[/url:2of66kkl] and

www.dodgeboats.org

Cheers

Steven C. Martini
San Diego, CA

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  • silverghost
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31 Mar 2013 05:32 #24901 by silverghost
Replied by silverghost on topic Dodge Watercar Boat Find with Big Lyoming Engine.
I just got a call last night from a local antique mahogany speedboat dealer/restorer fellow who bought a large 1920s-1930s tripple cockpit Dodge Watercar speedboat in very rough & highly altered condition from the York Pa area.
At some time in it's past life it was partially converted, & sadly butchered, into a semi-open utility runabout.
He Claims it has a Duesenberg straight engine in it~~~as well as a Duesenberg steering wheel & instrument panel + gauges.
I seriously doubt this fact is true !

NOW~~~.
This guy is not really an engine, nor car guy,~~~and I do not exactly trust what he is telling me he is in fact looking at~~~
More likely it is some sort of large standard Lycoming industrial/ marine conversion catalog engine !
To many guys any Lycoming engine is a "Duesenberg" engine !
But~~~Lycoming built many standard catalog marine engines in the 20s-30s-& 40s !

Horace Dodge in his varous Dodge Watercars did in fact use both small Dodge auto/marine conversion engines in their smaller catalog boat models, and also various larger Lycoming marine engines in their larger high-powered speedboats & custom built raceboats.
All Dodge Watercar boats are indeed very rare~~~ as few originals are known to actually still exist today.
The hull has the famous "Dodge Lady" mascot on the bow's cutwater band according to it's curentowner.

Horace Dodge was indeed a big Lycoming engine fan.
He used them in many of his various personal raceboats.

Great~Dodge Watercar & Horace Dodge History weblink~~~

www.acbs.org/rudder/oldrudder/Ru ... ercars.htm

I plan to inspect this boat late next week.
I will try to get a few digital photos of the boat & it's big engine to post here just for everyone's fun & information.
The odds it is is an overhead camshaft model "A" through "J" Duesenberg Lycoming engine in this hull I believe is very small & unlikely indeed~~~
But you just never know. ?

I have Little interest in another boat restoration project at this time~~~and this boat sounds like it needs to be totally rebuilt & it's former grand tripple cockpit deck configuration totally reconstructed.
The boat is for sale~~~
if anyone might have any interest I can also put you in touch with this local fellow !.
Here is his Philadelphia business weblink below~
www.vintagewatercraft.com

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

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  • Mike Dube
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18 Oct 2012 19:34 #23726 by Mike Dube
Very cool, thanks for sharing!

Mike
8-100A

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  • silverghost
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18 Oct 2012 04:46 #23723 by silverghost
Replied by silverghost on topic W-24 Cylinder Duesenberg Gold Cup Raceboat Engine
Joe~

I was just reminded that there was a former famous older boat racer named Chuck Hickmann from Ocean City NJ, & Philly Pa, who raced several famous large mahogany wood speedboats all named "Minitman"
Dad & I tried in the early 70s to buy one of his old Minitman" raceboats that was powered by a Curtiss OX-5 aero engine. He would not sell at any price .
Sometime in the mid 70s he decided to take the boat out of long term storage & put the boat in the bay for one last fast lap fun run during a forth of july celebration and run her in front of the OCYC (Ocean City Yacht Club) just before he was going to donate this race boat to a marine raceboat museum.. Sadly a fuel leak caused the boat to suddenly catch fire burning her to the waterline. Sadly she was a total loss.
That marinized Curtiss OX-5 is still rumored to be sitting at the bottom of the Great Egg Harbor Bay just in front of the Yacht Club's' docks near the boat ramp..
In storage Mr. Hickmann also had at that time period a Curtiss D-12 aero engine.
During the summer months Mr. Hickmann lived on his fantastic 50+foot wooden Chris~Craft Constellation motoryacht also called "Minitman" birthed at the Harbor House Marina in Ocean City NJ. I believe he was then seperated from his wife.
He his "Mnitman" boats were fixtures around Ocean City's Great Egg Habor Bay for many decades.
He also had in storage a giant brand new, & unused, Chris~Craft A-120-A 845 Cubic Inch marine race engine.
What a monster !

Joe~
Could this have possibly been the very same Curtiss D-12 engine that you later bought in South Jersey ?

Bill Knorr and his "Knorreaster I & II " Chris~ Craft race boats , as well as the Apels of Ventnor Boatworks fame (inventors of the three point hydroplane design) were also fixtures in this O.C./ Atlantic City NJ area also.

Talking about vintage Aero engines~
Members of my family own, & run, the North East Philadelphia Jet Center Airport FBO ~
There are quite a few Warbirds & Flight Trainers based here~
Did you know the late Philly Lawyer Jim Beasley (one of my old law professors) & his son Jim who own & fly several vintage warbirds along with several restored & flightworthy P-51 Mustangs & a rare MIG 15?
How about attorney Arthur Wolk an early Navy carrier F9F Panther jet Warbird owner/pilot ?
There is also a Waco biplane trainer & a very famous Stearman biplane trainer the " Canibal Queen" based at NE Philly.

BRAD~

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

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  • memaerobilia
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11 Jan 2012 15:51 #21892 by memaerobilia
Replied by memaerobilia on topic W-24 Cylinder Duesenberg Gold Cup Raceboat Engine
Hi Brad;
We have owned more than 20 OX-5s over the years. Once bought 13 in one lot in the late 1970s. a couple are now in early cars in the U.K..... (our aero engine collection had 175 Different types of pre-WWII aero engines, including 48 that were WWI and earlier, and 19 were the only known survivors of their type) I remember that seven of those OX-5s were marinized (in all different stages and in a couple of variations as to marine equp. In addition to some of the items you mention, they also had shallow, flat-bottomed pans.) and we sold those to a collector involved with restoring racing boats (including unlimited hydroplanes) in the state of Washington. He also had bought a super rare WWI MAYBACH engine from the warehouse for the old Nascar type Racing Museum in Talladega, that we missed...He also bought our extemely rare Curtiss D-12 450 hp that had come from a large racing boat in Southern New Jersey. I had only had it for a day!, and REALLY wanted to keep it, as I had been searching for one for YEARS. I still have photos of it. But he made me an offer I could not refuse. I undertsand that he later resold it for triple that amount, when it was discovered the serial number matched an engine from one of the planes in the famous Schneider Cup International seaplane races! I had found the D-12 when walking around the Fall Hershy fields in late 70s with a cardboard sign around my neck-asking for "aeroplanes, engines and parts" One of the vendors noticed it and said his neighbor had left his wife, and she was selling off all his auto and aero items and had a "LIBERTY" engine. We went down to Jersey and there was the engine with the Large "CURTISS-D-12" on the cam cover, with a flywheel added to the prop shaft for the mariine use, and otherwise, pretty stock and complete. We had a number of Liberty engines too, including two marinized Vimalert conversions. Were told that ONE of them came fom a Large batch of NOS surplus Liberty and other WWI aero engines that had been in a waredhouse on the Jersey Shore. and that LATER MANY crates of these "obsolete" NOS engines had been pushed off the docks into the water, to make space. There are all sorts of race boats on my website,
www.memaerobilia.com
from my Dad's old Raceway Garage shop. with several Aljos, a magnificent large hydro owned by candy magnate George Schraft, J. Paul Lillie's championship winning "Jaypee," and a really oddball small magnesium hulled hydro that is said to have set a record circa late 1950s-early1960s that looked like a flying saucer, and others. Along with several Auburns, Cords and Duesenbergs...

Joe G.
hundreds of our early photos or planes, racecars, customs classics @ www.memaerobilia.com

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  • silverghost
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10 Jan 2012 23:57 #21884 by silverghost
Replied by silverghost on topic W-24 Cylinder Duesenberg Gold Cup Raceboat Engine

memaerobilia wrote: Horace Dodge purchased 800 Curtiss OX-5 engines at a post-WWI government surplus sale, intending to use them in his boats. only a small percentage were actually used, and the rest were resold a few years later. I had the price and date and details of the original auction purchase in one of my old aviation magazines from the 1920's, but is is too many years ago, to find now.


I have only seen two marined WW I Curtiss OX-5 aviation engines in my life.
I remember seeing a very old marine/motorboat magazine advert for a company that produced marine conversion kits for the Curtis OX-5 aviation engine shortly after WW I .
The custom kits marineing consisted of marine water cooled exhaust manifolds & watercooled exhaust elbows, a Capitol marine gear/clutch transmission & mounting bell housings, twin gear bronze marine raw saltwater engine cooling pumps, thermostat housings, engine motor bed mounts, carb flame arrestors , etc.
This same company also sold complete turn-key marine coversion Curtiss OX-5 aviation engines.
About 15 years ago a new, never used, marined Curtiss OX-5 engine surfaced in the antique boat community.
It is now sitting in a great large restored mahogany runabout boat.
I believe it is the only running marined Curtiss OX-5 known .
There is a least one other out there in a private museum collection that does not run due to extensive casting saltwater corrosion & rust issues.

I suspect most marined Curtiss OX-5 engines that had once existed have now corroded away long ago throughout the decades since WW I
A friend of mine now owns a 1920s 75' foot Elco commuter yacht that was at one time in it long life was powered by two surplus Curtiss OX_5 engines.
It's running twin turbocharged inline Diesels today.
This Elco has had at least six re-powerings over it's very long life.

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

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  • memaerobilia
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10 Jan 2012 20:53 #21883 by memaerobilia
Replied by memaerobilia on topic W-24 Cylinder Duesenberg Gold Cup Raceboat Engine
Horace Dodge purchased 800 Curtiss OX-5 engines at a post-WWI government surplus sale, intending to use them in his boats. only a small percentage were actually used, and the rest were resold a few years later. I had the price and date and details of the original auction purchase in one of my old aviation magazines from the 1920's, but is is too many years ago, to find now.

Joe G.
hundreds of our early photos or planes, racecars, customs classics @ www.memaerobilia.com

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  • silverghost
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10 Jan 2012 17:48 #21882 by silverghost
Replied by silverghost on topic W-24 Cylinder Duesenberg Gold Cup Raceboat Engine
Randy, Steve, & Matt~~~

Thank's for the info and reply.
That's a great photo of the Duesenberg W-24 .

I sure would like to see the crankshaft configuration that The Duesenberg Brothers used on the W-24 beast.

It would appear that most of the problem issues that Horace Dodge had with the W-24 were later successfuly solved by later Gold Cup raceboat racer/owners.

Horace Dodge owned & built many world class raceboats in his day~~~
He also built the "Dodge Watercar" a line of mahogany runabout boats that he built in his own boat factory.
He intended these boats to be sold at Dodge automobile dealers alongside of the Dodge autos.
He wished to build production boats just like his father & uncle built the Dodge automobile.
The boats came as a turn-key package with a trailer.
Many of these boats used the small Dodge auto engines ; as well as the much larger & higher powered Lycoming engines.
These boats sported a "Dodge Lady" mascott on top of the bow's nickel plated brass cutwater trim.
When the "Dodge Watercar Boat Co. finally financially failed Dodge sold the entire factory & it's contents of tooling, jigs, patterns , woodworking equipment & & mahogany & white oak wood to Gar Wood the famous boat-racer , boatbuilder & hydraulic truck & equipment industrialist.
Gar Wood made a grand success out of this failed Dodge boatbuilding factory.
His "GarWood" boats are in very high demand today among collectors.

Very few of Horace Dodge's "Watercars" are know to survive today.
I believe only a dozen, or so, originals exist ?

I remember well one fine example sitting in the North Point Lagoon Ocean City Nj. in the 50s-60s-early 70s.
That boat sadly was cut-up with a chainsaw & went to the boat-yard's "burn pile" in the mid-1970s as nobody wanted to save it.
We had one of our boats in that very yard and saw the pile of cut-up mahogany planking.
I salvaged & still have the 6-volt vintage boat "Sparton" (Sparks Worthington Co.) 1920s deck siren from that very Dodge boat to this day.

Dodge lost a geat deal of cash on this ill-fated production boat-building venture.

Horace Dodge lived in a smaller modest home on his mother's grand large estate.
She controlled his trust fund inherited from his late father~~~one of the Dodge Brothers.
She cut him off financially several times because of his wild out of control spending on his raceboats, high powered fast automobiles, along with his ultra high living socialite & party lifestyle.

Dodge was a real playboy and spent tons of cash on his race boat & fast expensive automobile obsessions.

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

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  • landmark
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10 Jan 2012 16:40 #21881 by landmark

silverghost wrote: I also collect & restore Antique mahogany & early fiberglass boats.
While doing some research this past weekend I came across a mention of a Duesenberg built W-24 Cylinder Gold Cup Raceboat engine built in 1927.
For those of you who might wish to view the web-link I discovered~

www.lesliefield.com/other_histor ... _to_se.htm

The author of this web-link mentions that in 1927 Horace Dodge, playboy son of one of the Dodge Brothers, and Gold Cup boat racer, placed a "Custom Order" for two Gold Cup raceboat engines, & spare parts, from the Duesenberg brothers for his famous "Delphine" Gold Cup race boat.

W-24 Engine Specifications~
24 Cylinders
Three straight eight blocks bolted to a common crankcase.
On block mounted straight up, two mounted at 45* angles in a "W" formation.
2 7/8 " inch bore
4" stroke
623 Cu. In.
Horsepower ???
Double overhead cams on each block.
96 valves total

This engine design was unsuccessful for Horace Dodge as it failed to finish the Gold Cup boat race.

In 1935 Dodge sold these unique super engines to fellow Gold Cup racer Herbert Mendelson for use in his "Notre Dame" Gold Cup raceboat.
He added a centrifugal supercharger blower and pushed the horsepower up to 700 @ 4600 RPM.
Strangely with only 24 cylinders it had 30 exhaust pipe stacks ! ?
This boat raced again in 1940 & 1947.

Do any ACD forum members, & readers , know any more about this unique W-24 cylinder Duesenberg Gold Cup raceboat engine ?

Are there any existing photos of this unique W-24 cylinder engine; or these Gold Cup raceboats with these fantastic engines installed ?

Are there any other Duesenberg race boat engines, or just Duesenberg/ Lycoming marine engines, still surviving today ?

Any & all info, & Duesenberg engine/raceboat photo posts greatly appreciated .

Thank's~



Hello Silverghost,

you can find an article and two more photos of that 24 Cyl. W-engine in "Automobile quarterly -Volume 30, Number 4 (Summer 1992)" on page 18 and 19.

The photos show the front view with supercharger (directly driven by the crankshaft?) carburator (with airfilter) and the three (magneto?) ignition units driven by the camshaft-(driving)-chain(s).

In the article it was said that a sum about $ 32500 was agreed between Dodge and both Duesenberg brothers (Augie was involved in that project) for the construction and building of two of these engines.
Unfortunately the engines had never worked as expected... But nevertheless Mr. Dodge paid $ 30500 in six payments spread out until end of august 1926.

Later, in 1931, Augie Duesenberg tried (without success) to get the "missing" :rolleyes: $ 2000 plus a couple of hundreds dollars for his expences from Mr. Dodge.

Here is the reply to that request -written by W. M. Horn, secretary and treasurer of the Dodge boat and plane Co.

"This is certainly new to me, as I understood Mr. Dodge already had paid you more than the correct price.
As I personally sum up the entire dealings pertaining to the 24 cyl. Duesenbergs, I can only say it was most disastous for Mr. Dodge. If you had been dealing with anyone else, I am sure the motors would have been returned and suit instituted to refund the money."



Matt

P.S.: Onthe last page (p.112) of the Automobile quarterly edition there is an article about a raceboat "Disturber IV" from 1913, powered by two 12 cyl. inline Duesenberg walking beam engines. That boat set several world records at that time.

Data for a single engine:

12 cyl. inline (six blocks of two cyl.)

Bore: 6 3/4 inch

Stroke: 7 1/2 inch

Total displacement: 3219 cubic inches (per engine)

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

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  • RandyEma
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09 Jan 2012 23:30 #21877 by RandyEma
Yes it is

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  • Steve Derus
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09 Jan 2012 22:12 #21874 by Steve Derus
Replied by Steve Derus on topic W-24 Cylinder Duesenberg Gold Cup Raceboat Engine
found this on a google search, don't know if its the 24 cylinder motor.


Steve

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09 Jan 2012 15:56 #21870 by RandyEma
Brad . Simply put Yes they were built and run and yes they still exist. Randy

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09 Jan 2012 14:25 #21869 by silverghost
I also collect & restore Antique mahogany & early fiberglass boats.
While doing some research this past weekend I came across a mention of a Duesenberg built W-24 Cylinder Gold Cup Raceboat engine built in 1927.
For those of you who might wish to view the web-link I discovered~

www.lesliefield.com/other_histor ... _to_se.htm

The author of this web-link mentions that in 1927 Horace Dodge, playboy son of one of the Dodge Brothers, and Gold Cup boat racer, placed a "Custom Order" for two Gold Cup raceboat engines, & spare parts, from the Duesenberg brothers for his famous "Delphine" Gold Cup race boat.

W-24 Engine Specifications~
24 Cylinders
Three straight eight blocks bolted to a common crankcase.
On block mounted straight up, two mounted at 45* angles in a "W" formation.
2 7/8 " inch bore
4" stroke
623 Cu. In.
Horsepower ???
Double overhead cams on each block.
96 valves total

This engine design was unsuccessful for Horace Dodge as it failed to finish the Gold Cup boat race.

In 1935 Dodge sold these unique super engines to fellow Gold Cup racer Herbert Mendelson for use in his "Notre Dame" Gold Cup raceboat.
He added a centrifugal supercharger blower and pushed the horsepower up to 700 @ 4600 RPM.
Strangely with only 24 cylinders it had 30 exhaust pipe stacks ! ?
This boat raced again in 1940 & 1947.

Do any ACD forum members, & readers , know any more about this unique W-24 cylinder Duesenberg Gold Cup raceboat engine ?

Are there any existing photos of this unique W-24 cylinder engine; or these Gold Cup raceboats with these fantastic engines installed ?

Are there any other Duesenberg race boat engines, or just Duesenberg/ Lycoming marine engines, still surviving today ?

Any & all info, & Duesenberg engine/raceboat photo posts greatly appreciated .

Thank's~

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

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