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Judging of a non-certified car
- johnmereness
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Also, no harm in an original interior in a well restored Cord - there are a few survivors and people are quite proud.
JMM
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- Thomas Wilcock
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- Curt Schulze
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The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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- johnmereness
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As to custom painted cars - they still had an assembly line mentality (which as far as a company went they were pretty good at assembly line mentality) and betting the cost would have been discouraging on a modestly priced car.
We do know for example that they had a fair number of white Auburns via 1935 in photos (incl. White Caravan) and white is not on the color chart.
JMM
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- Curt Schulze
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The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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- Thomas Wilcock
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- Terry Cockerell
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Back in 2015, I attended the 810 812 Cord Tech Session in the Museum given by Mark Tomei which was very informative however he stated "Unlike Auburns Cords were only painted in standard colours". To which I politely interjected saying "I disagree with that statement from what I have read in Josh Malks books". The tempo went up a notch or two as Mark replied "No, No, No they were only available in standard colours. Cords were not painted in special colours to order". The quotations might not be exact, but are as I remember them. The funny thing was nobody else out of the twenty odd people who attended said anything.
To me it was literally rewriting the facts. I tried to sort things out via emails when I returned home to Australia but nothing doing. He stuck by his initial statements.
With your comments logic prevails.
T cockerell
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- JIM.OBRIEN
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The basic judging standard is "as the car came from the factory". The standard colors and interiors are well known and there is allowences given for color variation - just look at all the cigarette cream cars out there. Yes you could order a car in any color you wanted if you were willing to pay the extra cost. If any of these cars show up for judging they will be accepted as long as there is some proof that the car came from the factory in that color. This is the same with any non-standard items.
Without the documentation you would be opening up for the cars to be painted any color under the rainbow and would not be preserving the originality of the cars. Cords were one of the first, if not the first, to color coordinate the interior and exterior of the cars. Along the same lines you would be opening it up to any other modifications, accessories, etc. the owner wanted to do to the car.
The Club has to set the standards for judging somewhere and it has been set "as the car came from the factory". For any non-standard colors, items, configuration it is up to the owner to submit proof to the judges that the car came from the factory that way. If they submit acceptible proof then then the non standard color (or whatever) will not be penalized.
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- Curt Schulze
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- Terry Cockerell
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The ACD Club has been around for a long time with a lot of detailed information gathered by many members which is freely shared between them. I do have one issue with the current judging standards as they dismiss the possibility of cars being painted in special colours to special order at the Factory in Connersville. This is based upon the lack of specific documentation under the Auburn Automobile Company letter head.
In the past Gordon Buehrig had told members at numerous meets that special paint was available at extra cost. There is a document discovered by Rick Hulett in what remained of the Hupmobile Company files and parts in Auburn, that originated with the Philadelphia ACD agents Teefy Seltz which clearly lists special paint and trim at extra costs. Note the date on the sheet 3/2/36 which is at the start of sales. Trim variations I believe are accepted by the judging standards.
Reading the Engineering Changes for Cord 810 812 on page 36 is says,
Correction on Paint and Trim Combinations for 1937 Cords, dated 1/11/37
Top material listed on the Ivory Cab and Phaetons reads Black nad should be regular Light top material. When Black is used it will be special.
The use of the word "Special" was a nice surprise. From reading the available books it was obvious the Company would do everything required by customers to make sales in the tough times of the day. Special cars were built or modified to order. The hard topped coupes being the prime examples.
Auburns were offered in special paint and were being built in the same plant.
Folk law in Connersville talks of Cords being painted in special colours to special order. It probably was not a common occurrence due to the extra cost but to dismiss it seems to be a case of rewriting history. All of the available evidence points in the same direction and Gordon Buehrig's comments should not have been so easily disregarded. My car has always been grey which is the original colour so there is no issue there. The judging standards only accept standard paint colours, however they should accept the fact that cars could be ordered in special colours at extra cost.
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- Jonathan Richards
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Jim you may not be aware of the Sales Ledger discovered by Jim Brockman back in 1969 that came from the Toronto ACD dealer O'Donnell Mackie?
It lists the 810 812 Cords they sold with Serial Numbers, Engine Numbers and Paint Colours, my Cord just happens to be one of them. The attached copies came from the Auburn Museum where the ledger resides.
A few years ago I advertised in the newsletter if anybody knew the whereabouts of the engine FB 582 but unfortunately did not receive any replies.
Perhaps there is other information out there on other cars?
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- JIM.OBRIEN
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In theory your idea is simple and easy but in practical application it is impossible. The first reason is there is no way to determine what is a "numbers matching" car since there are no records on how the car left the factory. Second if someone determines a car is 80% or 90% "original" could mean the difference of tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars when the car comes up for sale, especally at an auction. This could leave the Club open to considerable liability.
Having different catagories in certification leads to the certification being miss represented. We learned this years ago and that is why we did away with the catagories. Either a car/owner is certified or it's not.
Also take into account the term "original" in the old car hobby, has taken on a new meaning in the last 10 years or so. As a result we no longer certify a car as an "original Auburn" it is certified as an "Auburn".
Over the last 25 plus years I have been involved in this discussion from all sides, incuding certification, judging, Board mamber and car owner. We have been around and around on these discussions and the systems we have now are a result of these discussions. While they may not be perfect they are working well. Most of the issues are because people have not read the information on judging or certification and have not kept up with the changes over the years.
Again I suggest everyone read the latest policy, procedures, rules for judging and certification.
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- Curt Schulze
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The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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- 1748 S
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Is there an easy answer to this... Nope.. But I'm comfortable waiting and watching how this sorts out.
Gary Parsons
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- Jonathan Richards
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What pops into my mind immediately is a simple solution. Certainly certification by the ACD Club is important for a very long, sensible list of reasons and I highly admire and laud the existence of this program. But why is there not a simple solution such as two 'types', call them whatever you wish, A and B for now. Certification of type A would be specifically to reward/recognize/confirm ORIGINAL ACD cars which have matching numbers, proper bodies, engines, chasses, etc....cars that exhibit the normal, expected original parts, . Why couldn't there then also be a similar, if not identical, certification process with equal weight and recognition, of cars that are NOT totally original...for example what I have heard called 'made up' cars. Chassis of one, fenders of another, engine of one of those or yet another...etc...you get the idea. Numbers might not match, cars could be 80% "made up" or made up of parts of multiple cars. We all know of examples of this type of car. BUT I don't see why it couldn't be examined by the certification team, and certified to be whatever level of original ACD parts required, in conjunction with parts which were not original to that car. Then it would carry the same certification definition but type B that it would have earned as an original car, but it would be listed as for instance, "Certified by the ACD Club as a "whateveryoupickfor a name" or B category Cord 810 Beverly meeting all standards for non-original but authentic (or other chosen words) ACD automobiles.
I'm sure you get my drift, the wording would have to be chosen carefully to be correct jargon in the collector car hobby but then ALL people with ACD automobiles could be "certified" by the ACD Club for whatever purpose they desire, either Certified as an A car or B car... you fill in the names of A and B. Seems to me to be a totally logical, simple and useful system, then the Club could move on to solving some other age old conundrum, this one could go away! The certification team would be intact, definitions would be clearly stated and published and all would be well in the certification world.
THEN said A & B certified cars could certainly also enter the JUDGING at an ACD Club meet. That's another matter.... Did the dashboard appear correct and did the gauges all work properly? Judge the car for what it IS just like one does now. If I had a Cord 810 Beverly with some 'non original parts' but it looked like an 810 Bev, drove properly, etc. and was sound, I could have it judged for what it IS, just like if I had it judged with all its original, matching parts. In other words, is the quality of the car's condition (however those standards are set) up to speed and how does it rank with others of its same non-original condition? I would imagine that usually all original, A category cars, would win most of the judging, BUT you never know when someone will do a GREAT job of restoring a 'made up' B category car that everyone thinks is prize-worthy. OR have 2 categories here also, judge all A cars and all B cars separately and be done with it. Wouldn't this encourage more ACD car owners to participate in the meets, judging & certification process? Wouldn't they feel more included? More likely to be good club members? Sure, A cars are better, but can't B cars be swell too? Why not reward them, but in a separate category?
Food for thought - keep it simple guys! I'm curious what you who are involved in judging and certification think about a plan based on this general concept. And NO, these are my thoughts and ideas not dictated to me by my husband and fellow member Jack Richards. We were discussing the subject and I said "seems like a simple solution would be...." I've been a cargirl since I was very young, raised by a daddy Gentlemen, it seems that this discussion about the certification and judging processes has been on-going for a long time. I don't read that anyone is 'assigned' to really come up with a solution; it seems discussion simply goes on without any sort of conclusion/resolution.
What pops into my mind immediately is a simple solution. Certainly certification by the ACD Club is important for a very long, sensible list of reasons and I highly admire and laud the existence of this program. But why is there not a simple solution such as two 'types', call them whatever you wish, A and B for now. Certification of type A would be specifically to reward/recognize/confirm ORIGINAL ACD cars which have matching numbers, proper bodies, engines, chasses, etc....cars that exhibit the normal, expected original parts, . Why couldn't there then also be a similar, if not identical, certification process with equal weight and recognition, of cars that are NOT totally original...for example what I have heard called 'made up' cars. Chassis of one, fenders of another, engine of one of those or yet another...etc...you get the idea. Numbers might not match, cars could be 80% "made up" or made up of parts of multiple cars. We all know of examples of this type of car. BUT I don't see why it couldn't be examined by the certification team, and certified to be whatever level of original ACD parts required, in conjunction with parts which were not original to that car. Then it would carry the same certification definition but type B that it would have earned as an original car, but it would be listed as for instance, "Certified by the ACD Club as a "whateveryoupickfor a name" or B category Cord 810 Beverly meeting all standards for non-original but authentic (or other chosen words) ACD automobiles.
I'm sure you get my drift, the wording would have to be chosen carefully to be correct jargon in the collector car hobby but then ALL people with ACD automobiles could be "certified" by the ACD Club for whatever purpose they desire, either Certified as an A car or B car... you fill in the names of A and B. Seems to me to be a totally logical, simple and useful system, then the Club could move on to solving some other age old conundrum, this one could go away! The certification team would be intact, definitions would be clearly stated and published and all would be well in the certification world.
THEN said A & B certified cars could certainly also enter the JUDGING at an ACD Club meet. That's another matter.... Did the dashboard appear correct and did the gauges all work properly? Judge the car for what it IS just like one does now. If I had a Cord 810 Beverly with some 'non original parts' but it looked like an 810 Bev, drove properly, etc. and was sound, I could have it judged for what it IS, just like if I had it judged with all its original, matching parts. In other words, is the quality of the car's condition (however those standards are set) up to speed and how does it rank with others of its same non-original condition? I would imagine that usually all original, A category cars, would win most of the judging, BUT you never know when someone will do a GREAT job of restoring a 'made up' B category car that everyone thinks is prize-worthy. OR have 2 categories here also, judge all A cars and all B cars separately and be done with it. Wouldn't this encourage more ACD car owners to participate in the meets, judging & certification process? Wouldn't they feel more included? More likely to be good club members? Sure, A cars are better, but can't B cars be swell too? Why not reward them, but in a separate category?
Food for thought - keep it simple guys! I'm curious what you who are involved in judging and certification think about a plan based on this general concept. And NO, these are my thoughts and ideas not dictated to me by my husband and fellow member Jack Richards. We were discussing the subject and I said "seems like a simple solution would be...." I've been a cargirl since I was very young, raised by a daddy Gentlemen, it seems that this discussion about the certification and judging processes has been on-going for a long time. I don't read that anyone is 'assigned' to really come up with a solution; it seems discussion simply goes on without any sort of conclusion/resolution.
What pops into my mind immediately is a simple solution. Certainly certification by the ACD Club is important for a very long, sensible list of reasons and I highly admire and laud the existence of this program. But why is there not a simple solution such as two 'types', call them whatever you wish, A and B for now. Certification of type A would be specifically to reward/recognize/confirm ORIGINAL ACD cars which have matching numbers, proper bodies, engines, chasses, etc....cars that exhibit the normal, expected original parts, . Why couldn't there then also be a similar, if not identical, certification process with equal weight and recognition, of cars that are NOT totally original...for example what I have heard called 'made up' cars. Chassis of one, fenders of another, engine of one of those or yet another...etc...you get the idea. Numbers might not match, cars could be 80% "made up" or made up of parts of multiple cars. We all know of examples of this type of car. BUT I don't see why it couldn't be examined by the certification team, and certified to be whatever level of original ACD parts required, in conjunction with parts which were not original to that car. Then it would carry the same certification definition but type B that it would have earned as an original car, but it would be listed as for instance, "Certified by the ACD Club as a "whateveryoupickfor a name" or B category Cord 810 Beverly meeting all standards for non-original but authentic (or other chosen words) ACD automobiles.
I'm sure you get my drift, the wording would have to be chosen carefully to be correct jargon in the collector car hobby but then ALL people with ACD automobiles could be "certified" by the ACD Club for whatever purpose they desire, either Certified as an A car or B car... you fill in the names of A and B. Seems to me to be a totally logical, simple and useful system, then the Club could move on to solving some other age old conundrum, this one could go away! The certification team would be intact, definitions would be clearly stated and published and all would be well in the certification world.
THEN said A & B certified cars could certainly also enter the JUDGING at an ACD Club meet. That's another matter.... Did the dashboard appear correct and did the gauges all work properly? Judge the car for what it IS just like one does now. If I had a Cord 810 Beverly with some 'non original parts' but it looked like an 810 Bev, drove properly, etc. and was sound, I could have it judged for what it IS, just like if I had it judged with all its original, matching parts. In other words, is the quality of the car's condition (however those standards are set) up to speed and how does it rank with others of its same non-original condition? I would imagine that usually all original, A category cars, would win most of the judging, BUT you never know when someone will do a GREAT job of restoring a 'made up' B category car that everyone thinks is prize-worthy. OR have 2 categories here also, judge all A cars and all B cars separately and be done with it. Wouldn't this encourage more ACD car owners to participate in the meets, judging & certification process? Wouldn't they feel more included? More likely to be good club members? Sure, A cars are better, but can't B cars be swell too? Why not reward them, but in a separate category?
Food for thought - keep it simple guys! I'm curious what you who are involved in judging and certification think about a plan based on this general concept. And NO, these are my thoughts and ideas not dictated to me by my husband and fellow member Jack Richards. We were discussing the subject and I said "seems like a simple solution would be...." I've been a cargirl since I was very young, raised by a daddy who was zipping around in sports cars when I was very young...don't get me started. Leslie Richards, Chesterfield, Missouri.
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- JIM.OBRIEN
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It’s good to hear from you as you are always thought provoking. The certification program was started in 1982 to support the Club’s mission of “…to preserve and maintain an accurate source of technical and historical information on these three automobiles…” (Bylaws Article 1).
Everyone need to understand that Certification and Judging are two separate functions that are totally independent of each other. Yes at one time there were discussions that only certified cars should be allowed to be judged, it was quickly pointed out that this would not work and was dropped. Any discussions Certification or Judging should be independent of each other and not tied together. In parts of your post I was having trouble figuring out if you were talking about certification or judging.
Over the years the certification and judging programs have evolved, just like everything else. Over the years the people involved in both programs have worked are to keep the rules and procedures up to date and transparent to all. Above all we have worked to maintain and improve the integrity of both functions. With both programs there will always be gray areas that need to be addressed on an individual basis withing the guidelines of their respective system as well as the By-Laws of the Club.
For anyone interested I would suggest reading a series of articles I wrote in the Newsletter a few years ago on Certification including what is Certification, how it works, the criteria that has to be met, etc.
I believe the Judging rules are in the latest Club Directory as well as on the website (I may be wrong as I haven’t looked at them in a while.)
I Hope to see you in Auburn in a few weeks and we can continue this discussion.
Jim
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- Jonathan Richards
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This topic of certification and judging standards has come up repeatedly as we have developed and matured as an organization. As a longtime member I have the distinct impression that the troublesome issues have never been adequately addressed.
Over four years ago I penned a "Draft" post which I am appending below. I believe the points I have raised are still valid today. Can we perhaps come to an agreement as to how we can come to grips with this problem ??
The ACD Club website's JUDGING STANDARDS forum and CERTIFICATION TEAM thread is a good reason to establish reasoned and civil communication among all ACD Club members. The Certification Team thread was established by now former Certification Supervisor and then Chief Judge Brad Waken of OK on 4-21-2003. The thread has had contributors off and on but never, until now, has there been the voluminous activity which followed upon the post to the thread on 3-8-08 by member Brent Merrill. Jim O'Brien of PA [ P.N.P. 2000-2001] responded on 3-10-08 to the post of 3-8-08. At the time of these posts Brad Waken of OK was serving as Chief Judge and Paul J. Bryant of KS was ably serving as Certification Supervisor, a position he held from at least 1987 until his death. Upon Bryant's death the position was filled by Jim O'Brien, a position he holds to this day. The Certification Supervisor position was created by the By-Laws of the club adopted 1-14-1960 , cf. Article VIII Duties of Officers , Section 7. Certification Supervisor. These By-Laws were Revised March 2003 and are printed at pages 79 - 82 of the 2015-2016 Membership Directory. The 1960 By-Laws specifically described the Certification Supervisor duties and stated that "This person works directly under the Board of Directors and with a certification Review Group." The revised By-Laws of 2003 do not contain the specifics of Article VIII , Section 7 cited above. In fact the Certification Supervisor position is not contained in the revised By-Laws of 2003. At page 83 of the 2015-2016 Membership Directory appear "Job Descriptions", including Certification Supervisor but I do not believe this list is officially a part of the By-Laws. Perhaps the Board of Directors intended that it be so considered. I do not know. The important take-away for me in all of this is that in order to address the Certification issues a dialogue must be undertaken with the Board of Directors, the Certification Supervisor and the Certification Review Group. The entire discussion of "Certification" must initially be broad-based to include asking the question as to whether the process is productive and necessary to establishment of standards of "Restoration and Preservation" of ACD automobiles, which was the basis of the formation of the club by founder Harry Denhard in 1952. The world was much simpler 65 years ago but the basic rationale for the ACD Club remains the same. I happen to think that an ordered, equitable and transparent system of certifying the authenticity of ACD cars is very worthwhile, in order to preserve the remarkable engineering and stylistic history which they exemplify. While the Judging Rules are inextricably associated with Certification, the two areas of club activity and focus can at the same time be independent of one another. In spite of apparent earlier efforts to make Certification a condition precedent to entry of an automobile into the judging process for awards, it appears that we are not so structured at this time. As the saying goes "they are only original once", and we need to respect and value originality. Much can be learned from originality about the history of our Auburn , Cord and Duesenberg automobiles.
All of the above discussion brings me to one of the points recently made in posts to the Certification Team thread on 2-6-17 by member Curt Schultz of WI and Brent Merrill, are there in fact "Categories" in the certification procedures ? The only reference which I have been thus far able to find to "Category 1" and "Category 2" certification is contained in the 1987-1988 Membership Directory at pp. 112-113. There, under Judging Rules #4, it is stated [ " Auburn , Cord and Duesenberg automobiles may be eligible for judging and awards if the entry fulfills the following criteria. A. ENTRANT -the car must be entered by a current member of the ACD Club. B. ORIGIN - The car must have been manufactured by the Auburn Automobile Co. or the Duesenberg Co. before 1940. C. CHASSIS - The chassis must be of original origin , as defined above, and retain at least the original frame, engine, drive train and running gear. D. - BODY - Category No. 1 -- An original body built before 1940, either by the Auburn Automobile Co. or a subsidiary of (sic) by a custom body builder, originally for an Auburn, Cord or Duesenberg chassis. Category No. 2 -- Re-bodied -- in accordance with the minutes of the Board of Directors Meeting of September 4 , 1970, replica bodies will be accepted as original provided they are replicas of styles produced prior to 1938 and of original materials (wood and metal). All other cars must be appealed to the Judging Committee for classification." ]. Well, there you have it. This rule, assuming that it has not been rescinded or revoked by subsequent action by the Board of Directors, is the law of the land on the question/issue of judging categories. Note that there is no mention of certification categories, ONLY as to judging. The construction of Judging Rule #4 is amorphous and subject to appeal only to the Judging Committee. Note too that the category refers ONLY to the subject of bodies. The most recent statement of Judging Policy found at p.68 of the 2015-2016 Membership Directory makes no mention of judging " Categories".
The bottom line for this member is that we have a true can of worms. I realize that this message has been very long and disjointed, for which I apologize. This is a very complex area of organization, rule making and implementation. We have had 65 years since 1952, during which many dedicated and knowledgeable people have grappled with these problems presented. Tempers run high on issues of this kind, particularly when members have expended countless hours and funds on restoration and preservation of their automobile/s , but I am hopeful that the issues and conflicts can be resolved with a view toward uniformity, and equity of application, of carefully thought out rules and standards for both Certification and Judging. We owe this to our founders and all current and future members.
I stand ready to discuss dispassionately and objectively this entire issue and look forward to the response of officers and membership at large. Let us move forward together to make our club even better. Thank you, Jonathan ( Jack ) Richards , #1080 at Chesterfield, Missouri.
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- Curt Schulze
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The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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CORDiallyMike
Mike Huffman
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