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Judging of a non-certified car

  • johnmereness
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21 Nov 2022 16:37 - 21 Nov 2022 16:39 #46431 by johnmereness
Replied by johnmereness on topic Judging of a non-certified car
 Vinyl was sort of a new-fangled thing that was all the rage in the period so it does not surprise me in the slightest to see an all vinyl interior - also does not surprise me that if they just finished a car with whatever materials they had on hand that day - distressed company and all  (34-36 Auburn open cars are a mix of vinyl and leather, and most Cords are the same thought process with original interiors I have seen being vinyl with leather seating surfaces and perhaps a few leather trim pieces).  Most people do their interiors wrong as to all leather in restoration.   

Also, no harm in an original interior in a well restored Cord - there are a few survivors and people are quite proud. 

JMM
Last edit: 21 Nov 2022 16:39 by johnmereness.

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  • Thomas Wilcock
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10 Nov 2022 12:17 #46371 by Thomas Wilcock
Replied by Thomas Wilcock on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Here is a picture of the original rear seat back and interior trim on the frame behind it on my renumbered 1937 Phaeton. You will notice the metal around and under the trim is grey. It appears to me that the original color on my car was cadet grey.  It never did have a dark blue interior like all cadet grey phaetons are "supposed" to have.Tom
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  • Curt Schulze
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13 Oct 2021 22:45 #44095 by Curt Schulze
Replied by Curt Schulze on topic Judging of a non-certified car
They might have been painted white on the assembly line, but discolored quickly. Ultra -violet rays quickly discolored the white to an off-yellow.

The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Be of Good Cheer
Curt
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13 Oct 2021 22:24 #44094 by johnmereness
Replied by johnmereness on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Sort of like: Will the true color of cigarette cream stand up ? Or did they have more than one shade of yellow-ish ?

As to custom painted cars - they still had an assembly line mentality (which as far as a company went they were pretty good at assembly line mentality) and betting the cost would have been discouraging on a modestly priced car.

We do know for example that they had a fair number of white Auburns via 1935 in photos (incl. White Caravan) and white is not on the color chart.

JMM
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  • Curt Schulze
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16 Aug 2021 12:22 #43719 by Curt Schulze
Replied by Curt Schulze on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Since Auburns were painted custom colors, it occures to me that the higher end Cord would as well.

The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Be of Good Cheer
Curt
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  • Thomas Wilcock
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16 Aug 2021 12:00 #43718 by Thomas Wilcock
Replied by Thomas Wilcock on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Contrary to popular belief, my phaeton never had any leather in the interior when new. I have no documentation to prove this--only the fact that there is only one set of nail holes in the original wood and those are what held the original cloth backed leatherette in place. The seats are in this same material. I only have the car's history back to the late 1940's.
Tom

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  • Terry Cockerell
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16 Aug 2021 02:34 #43717 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Hi Jim, thanks for your detailed reply. Having some documentation to go with a non standard colour makes sense.
Back in 2015, I attended the 810 812 Cord Tech Session in the Museum given by Mark Tomei which was very informative however he stated "Unlike Auburns Cords were only painted in standard colours". To which I politely interjected saying "I disagree with that statement from what I have read in Josh Malks books". The tempo went up a notch or two as Mark replied "No, No, No they were only available in standard colours. Cords were not painted in special colours to order". The quotations might not be exact, but are as I remember them. The funny thing was nobody else out of the twenty odd people who attended said anything.
To me it was literally rewriting the facts. I tried to sort things out via emails when I returned home to Australia but nothing doing. He stuck by his initial statements.
With your comments logic prevails.

T cockerell
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  • JIM.OBRIEN
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16 Aug 2021 00:45 #43716 by JIM.OBRIEN
Replied by JIM.OBRIEN on topic Judging of a non-certified car
HI Terry, I will reply to your post even though haven't been actively involved in judging in a few years but I think this still holds true, if not I'm sure I will get corrected.

The basic judging standard is "as the car came from the factory". The standard colors and interiors are well known and there is allowences given for color variation - just look at all the cigarette cream cars out there. Yes you could order a car in any color you wanted if you were willing to pay the extra cost. If any of these cars show up for judging they will be accepted as long as there is some proof that the car came from the factory in that color. This is the same with any non-standard items.

Without the documentation you would be opening up for the cars to be painted any color under the rainbow and would not be preserving the originality of the cars. Cords were one of the first, if not the first, to color coordinate the interior and exterior of the cars. Along the same lines you would be opening it up to any other modifications, accessories, etc. the owner wanted to do to the car.

The Club has to set the standards for judging somewhere and it has been set "as the car came from the factory". For any non-standard colors, items, configuration it is up to the owner to submit proof to the judges that the car came from the factory that way. If they submit acceptible proof then then the non standard color (or whatever) will not be penalized.

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  • Curt Schulze
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16 Aug 2021 00:45 #43715 by Curt Schulze
Replied by Curt Schulze on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Attached is some data on Auburns. Note, special paint could be ordered for $31

The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Be of Good Cheer
Curt
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15 Aug 2021 22:39 - 16 Aug 2021 00:30 #43714 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Hi Leslie we are trying to keep safe in these trying times.
The ACD Club has been around for a long time with a lot of detailed information gathered by many members which is freely shared between them. I do have one issue with the current judging standards as they dismiss the possibility of cars being painted in special colours to special order at the Factory in Connersville. This is based upon the lack of specific documentation under the Auburn Automobile Company letter head.
In the past Gordon Buehrig had told members at numerous meets that special paint was available at extra cost. There is a document discovered by Rick Hulett in what remained of the Hupmobile Company files and parts in Auburn, that originated with the Philadelphia ACD agents Teefy Seltz which clearly lists special paint and trim at extra costs. Note the date on the sheet 3/2/36 which is at the start of sales. Trim variations I believe are accepted by the judging standards.
Reading the Engineering Changes for Cord 810 812 on page 36 is says,
Correction on Paint and Trim Combinations for 1937 Cords, dated 1/11/37
Top material listed on the Ivory Cab and Phaetons reads Black nad should be regular Light top material. When Black is used it will be special.
The use of the word "Special" was a nice surprise. From reading the available books it was obvious the Company would do everything required by customers to make sales in the tough times of the day. Special cars were built or modified to order. The hard topped coupes being the prime examples.
Auburns were offered in special paint and were being built in the same plant.
Folk law in Connersville talks of Cords being painted in special colours to special order. It probably was not a common occurrence due to the extra cost but to dismiss it seems to be a case of rewriting history. All of the available evidence points in the same direction and Gordon Buehrig's comments should not have been so easily disregarded. My car has always been grey which is the original colour so there is no issue there. The judging standards only accept standard paint colours, however they should accept the fact that cars could be ordered in special colours at extra cost.


T cockerell
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Last edit: 16 Aug 2021 00:30 by Terry Cockerell. Reason: Adding document and revising text.
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15 Aug 2021 16:24 #43711 by Jonathan Richards
Replied by Jonathan Richards on topic Judging of a non-certified car
G'Day Terry, thanks for this; as long as I have known Jack I've heard the phrase "numbers matching" - a zillion times - so of course I have believed it to be a real thing. But semantics aside it seems odd to me that after all these years there is not an agreed-to way to "certify" an original car versus one which has been materially modified. The decades spent by well-known aficionados must be seen as some sort of recognizable authority and serve as a knowledge base especially with the help of factory records. Stay well down there! Leslie Richards, aka Jack's wife and ACD member.

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15 Aug 2021 16:12 #43710 by Jonathan Richards
Replied by Jonathan Richards on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Jim, please see above, you replied to Jack accidentally, the above post was by me, not Jack.

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15 Aug 2021 07:11 - 15 Aug 2021 12:04 #43709 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Jim, I disagree with your statement ""The first reason is there is no way to determine what is a "numbers matching" car since there are no records on how the car left the factory"".
Jim you may not be aware of the Sales Ledger discovered by Jim Brockman back in 1969 that came from the Toronto ACD dealer O'Donnell Mackie?
It lists the 810 812 Cords they sold with Serial Numbers, Engine Numbers and Paint Colours, my Cord just happens to be one of them. The attached copies came from the Auburn Museum where the ledger resides.
A few years ago I advertised in the newsletter if anybody knew the whereabouts of the engine FB 582 but unfortunately did not receive any replies.
Perhaps there is other information out there on other cars?

T cockerell
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Last edit: 15 Aug 2021 12:04 by Terry Cockerell. Reason: Adding pictures and revising text
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10 Aug 2021 21:11 #43672 by JIM.OBRIEN
Replied by JIM.OBRIEN on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Hi Jack,
In theory your idea is simple and easy but in practical application it is impossible. The first reason is there is no way to determine what is a "numbers matching" car since there are no records on how the car left the factory. Second if someone determines a car is 80% or 90% "original" could mean the difference of tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars when the car comes up for sale, especally at an auction. This could leave the Club open to considerable liability.

Having different catagories in certification leads to the certification being miss represented. We learned this years ago and that is why we did away with the catagories. Either a car/owner is certified or it's not.

Also take into account the term "original" in the old car hobby, has taken on a new meaning in the last 10 years or so. As a result we no longer certify a car as an "original Auburn" it is certified as an "Auburn".

Over the last 25 plus years I have been involved in this discussion from all sides, incuding certification, judging, Board mamber and car owner. We have been around and around on these discussions and the systems we have now are a result of these discussions. While they may not be perfect they are working well. Most of the issues are because people have not read the information on judging or certification and have not kept up with the changes over the years.

Again I suggest everyone read the latest policy, procedures, rules for judging and certification.
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  • Curt Schulze
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10 Aug 2021 16:35 #43669 by Curt Schulze
Replied by Curt Schulze on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Me too Gary !

The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Be of Good Cheer
Curt

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10 Aug 2021 15:32 - 10 Aug 2021 21:10 #43668 by 1748 S
Replied by 1748 S on topic Judging of a non-certified car
I feel there is a clear distinction between a judged car and a certified car They are completely different "ideas" based on how things are done in our club. If a car was "made up" from many other cars but all the pieces were original to that particular type of car then its still a Cord if thats what a person is building back to original in appearance. But it MUST have at one time drove off the assembly line as it appears when finished. No taking a sedan and cutting it down into a convertible. Its still a sedan even if you "found" a convertible serial number tag. My sedan has the original serial number tag that even Randy Ema did not see in 2016 when he came to my home to look at my restoration. About 4 months ago I took both tags to Randys shop where he took pictures of them for the master book of Cords by Ron Irwin. My car will have plenty of "other Cord car parts" when I finish my restoration. But every part came from a Cord or from the spare parts left over after Auburn closed. I realize some members have some NOS parts. But very few of them are out there. I have some of them. I know a member that has a NOS dash instrument light switch. The cost is $500.00 but is that too much? Maybe. My information shows in around 1937 or 8 Auburn paid 19 cents for them and sold them for 95 cents. I have seen this written in the original Auburn parts ledgers. I may never have my Beverly sedan certified but if I do I realize the complex process that goes in to certifying a Cord.
Is there an easy answer to this... Nope.. But I'm comfortable waiting and watching how this sorts out.


Gary Parsons
Last edit: 10 Aug 2021 21:10 by 1748 S.

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  • Jonathan Richards
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10 Aug 2021 04:09 #43665 by Jonathan Richards
Replied by Jonathan Richards on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Gentlemen, it seems that this discussion about the certification and judging processes has been on-going for a long time. I don't read that anyone is 'assigned' to really come up with a solution; it seems discussion simply goes on without any sort of conclusion/resolution.

What pops into my mind immediately is a simple solution. Certainly certification by the ACD Club is important for a very long, sensible list of reasons and I highly admire and laud the existence of this program. But why is there not a simple solution such as two 'types', call them whatever you wish, A and B for now. Certification of type A would be specifically to reward/recognize/confirm ORIGINAL ACD cars which have matching numbers, proper bodies, engines, chasses, etc....cars that exhibit the normal, expected original parts, . Why couldn't there then also be a similar, if not identical, certification process with equal weight and recognition, of cars that are NOT totally original...for example what I have heard called 'made up' cars. Chassis of one, fenders of another, engine of one of those or yet another...etc...you get the idea. Numbers might not match, cars could be 80% "made up" or made up of parts of multiple cars. We all know of examples of this type of car. BUT I don't see why it couldn't be examined by the certification team, and certified to be whatever level of original ACD parts required, in conjunction with parts which were not original to that car. Then it would carry the same certification definition but type B that it would have earned as an original car, but it would be listed as for instance, "Certified by the ACD Club as a "whateveryoupickfor a name" or B category Cord 810 Beverly meeting all standards for non-original but authentic (or other chosen words) ACD automobiles.
I'm sure you get my drift, the wording would have to be chosen carefully to be correct jargon in the collector car hobby but then ALL people with ACD automobiles could be "certified" by the ACD Club for whatever purpose they desire, either Certified as an A car or B car... you fill in the names of A and B. Seems to me to be a totally logical, simple and useful system, then the Club could move on to solving some other age old conundrum, this one could go away! The certification team would be intact, definitions would be clearly stated and published and all would be well in the certification world.

THEN said A & B certified cars could certainly also enter the JUDGING at an ACD Club meet. That's another matter.... Did the dashboard appear correct and did the gauges all work properly? Judge the car for what it IS just like one does now. If I had a Cord 810 Beverly with some 'non original parts' but it looked like an 810 Bev, drove properly, etc. and was sound, I could have it judged for what it IS, just like if I had it judged with all its original, matching parts. In other words, is the quality of the car's condition (however those standards are set) up to speed and how does it rank with others of its same non-original condition? I would imagine that usually all original, A category cars, would win most of the judging, BUT you never know when someone will do a GREAT job of restoring a 'made up' B category car that everyone thinks is prize-worthy. OR have 2 categories here also, judge all A cars and all B cars separately and be done with it. Wouldn't this encourage more ACD car owners to participate in the meets, judging & certification process? Wouldn't they feel more included? More likely to be good club members? Sure, A cars are better, but can't B cars be swell too? Why not reward them, but in a separate category?

Food for thought - keep it simple guys! I'm curious what you who are involved in judging and certification think about a plan based on this general concept. And NO, these are my thoughts and ideas not dictated to me by my husband and fellow member Jack Richards. We were discussing the subject and I said "seems like a simple solution would be...." I've been a cargirl since I was very young, raised by a daddy Gentlemen, it seems that this discussion about the certification and judging processes has been on-going for a long time. I don't read that anyone is 'assigned' to really come up with a solution; it seems discussion simply goes on without any sort of conclusion/resolution.

What pops into my mind immediately is a simple solution. Certainly certification by the ACD Club is important for a very long, sensible list of reasons and I highly admire and laud the existence of this program. But why is there not a simple solution such as two 'types', call them whatever you wish, A and B for now. Certification of type A would be specifically to reward/recognize/confirm ORIGINAL ACD cars which have matching numbers, proper bodies, engines, chasses, etc....cars that exhibit the normal, expected original parts, . Why couldn't there then also be a similar, if not identical, certification process with equal weight and recognition, of cars that are NOT totally original...for example what I have heard called 'made up' cars. Chassis of one, fenders of another, engine of one of those or yet another...etc...you get the idea. Numbers might not match, cars could be 80% "made up" or made up of parts of multiple cars. We all know of examples of this type of car. BUT I don't see why it couldn't be examined by the certification team, and certified to be whatever level of original ACD parts required, in conjunction with parts which were not original to that car. Then it would carry the same certification definition but type B that it would have earned as an original car, but it would be listed as for instance, "Certified by the ACD Club as a "whateveryoupickfor a name" or B category Cord 810 Beverly meeting all standards for non-original but authentic (or other chosen words) ACD automobiles.

I'm sure you get my drift, the wording would have to be chosen carefully to be correct jargon in the collector car hobby but then ALL people with ACD automobiles could be "certified" by the ACD Club for whatever purpose they desire, either Certified as an A car or B car... you fill in the names of A and B. Seems to me to be a totally logical, simple and useful system, then the Club could move on to solving some other age old conundrum, this one could go away! The certification team would be intact, definitions would be clearly stated and published and all would be well in the certification world.
THEN said A & B certified cars could certainly also enter the JUDGING at an ACD Club meet. That's another matter.... Did the dashboard appear correct and did the gauges all work properly? Judge the car for what it IS just like one does now. If I had a Cord 810 Beverly with some 'non original parts' but it looked like an 810 Bev, drove properly, etc. and was sound, I could have it judged for what it IS, just like if I had it judged with all its original, matching parts. In other words, is the quality of the car's condition (however those standards are set) up to speed and how does it rank with others of its same non-original condition? I would imagine that usually all original, A category cars, would win most of the judging, BUT you never know when someone will do a GREAT job of restoring a 'made up' B category car that everyone thinks is prize-worthy. OR have 2 categories here also, judge all A cars and all B cars separately and be done with it. Wouldn't this encourage more ACD car owners to participate in the meets, judging & certification process? Wouldn't they feel more included? More likely to be good club members? Sure, A cars are better, but can't B cars be swell too? Why not reward them, but in a separate category?

Food for thought - keep it simple guys! I'm curious what you who are involved in judging and certification think about a plan based on this general concept. And NO, these are my thoughts and ideas not dictated to me by my husband and fellow member Jack Richards. We were discussing the subject and I said "seems like a simple solution would be...." I've been a cargirl since I was very young, raised by a daddy Gentlemen, it seems that this discussion about the certification and judging processes has been on-going for a long time. I don't read that anyone is 'assigned' to really come up with a solution; it seems discussion simply goes on without any sort of conclusion/resolution.

What pops into my mind immediately is a simple solution. Certainly certification by the ACD Club is important for a very long, sensible list of reasons and I highly admire and laud the existence of this program. But why is there not a simple solution such as two 'types', call them whatever you wish, A and B for now. Certification of type A would be specifically to reward/recognize/confirm ORIGINAL ACD cars which have matching numbers, proper bodies, engines, chasses, etc....cars that exhibit the normal, expected original parts, . Why couldn't there then also be a similar, if not identical, certification process with equal weight and recognition, of cars that are NOT totally original...for example what I have heard called 'made up' cars. Chassis of one, fenders of another, engine of one of those or yet another...etc...you get the idea. Numbers might not match, cars could be 80% "made up" or made up of parts of multiple cars. We all know of examples of this type of car. BUT I don't see why it couldn't be examined by the certification team, and certified to be whatever level of original ACD parts required, in conjunction with parts which were not original to that car. Then it would carry the same certification definition but type B that it would have earned as an original car, but it would be listed as for instance, "Certified by the ACD Club as a "whateveryoupickfor a name" or B category Cord 810 Beverly meeting all standards for non-original but authentic (or other chosen words) ACD automobiles.

I'm sure you get my drift, the wording would have to be chosen carefully to be correct jargon in the collector car hobby but then ALL people with ACD automobiles could be "certified" by the ACD Club for whatever purpose they desire, either Certified as an A car or B car... you fill in the names of A and B. Seems to me to be a totally logical, simple and useful system, then the Club could move on to solving some other age old conundrum, this one could go away! The certification team would be intact, definitions would be clearly stated and published and all would be well in the certification world.

THEN said A & B certified cars could certainly also enter the JUDGING at an ACD Club meet. That's another matter.... Did the dashboard appear correct and did the gauges all work properly? Judge the car for what it IS just like one does now. If I had a Cord 810 Beverly with some 'non original parts' but it looked like an 810 Bev, drove properly, etc. and was sound, I could have it judged for what it IS, just like if I had it judged with all its original, matching parts. In other words, is the quality of the car's condition (however those standards are set) up to speed and how does it rank with others of its same non-original condition? I would imagine that usually all original, A category cars, would win most of the judging, BUT you never know when someone will do a GREAT job of restoring a 'made up' B category car that everyone thinks is prize-worthy. OR have 2 categories here also, judge all A cars and all B cars separately and be done with it. Wouldn't this encourage more ACD car owners to participate in the meets, judging & certification process? Wouldn't they feel more included? More likely to be good club members? Sure, A cars are better, but can't B cars be swell too? Why not reward them, but in a separate category?

Food for thought - keep it simple guys! I'm curious what you who are involved in judging and certification think about a plan based on this general concept. And NO, these are my thoughts and ideas not dictated to me by my husband and fellow member Jack Richards. We were discussing the subject and I said "seems like a simple solution would be...." I've been a cargirl since I was very young, raised by a daddy who was zipping around in sports cars when I was very young...don't get me started. Leslie Richards, Chesterfield, Missouri.

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  • JIM.OBRIEN
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06 Aug 2021 02:02 #43644 by JIM.OBRIEN
Replied by JIM.OBRIEN on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Hi Jack,
It’s good to hear from you as you are always thought provoking. The certification program was started in 1982 to support the Club’s mission of “…to preserve and maintain an accurate source of technical and historical information on these three automobiles…” (Bylaws Article 1).

Everyone need to understand that Certification and Judging are two separate functions that are totally independent of each other. Yes at one time there were discussions that only certified cars should be allowed to be judged, it was quickly pointed out that this would not work and was dropped. Any discussions Certification or Judging should be independent of each other and not tied together. In parts of your post I was having trouble figuring out if you were talking about certification or judging.

Over the years the certification and judging programs have evolved, just like everything else. Over the years the people involved in both programs have worked are to keep the rules and procedures up to date and transparent to all. Above all we have worked to maintain and improve the integrity of both functions. With both programs there will always be gray areas that need to be addressed on an individual basis withing the guidelines of their respective system as well as the By-Laws of the Club.

For anyone interested I would suggest reading a series of articles I wrote in the Newsletter a few years ago on Certification including what is Certification, how it works, the criteria that has to be met, etc.

I believe the Judging rules are in the latest Club Directory as well as on the website (I may be wrong as I haven’t looked at them in a while.)

I Hope to see you in Auburn in a few weeks and we can continue this discussion.

Jim

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04 Aug 2021 17:25 #43640 by Jonathan Richards
Replied by Jonathan Richards on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Mr. Certification Supervisor and all fellow ACD Club members:
This topic of certification and judging standards has come up repeatedly as we have developed and matured as an organization. As a longtime member I have the distinct impression that the troublesome issues have never been adequately addressed.
Over four years ago I penned a "Draft" post which I am appending below. I believe the points I have raised are still valid today. Can we perhaps come to an agreement as to how we can come to grips with this problem ??
The ACD Club website's JUDGING STANDARDS forum and CERTIFICATION TEAM thread is a good reason to establish reasoned and civil communication among all ACD Club members. The Certification Team thread was established by now former Certification Supervisor and then Chief Judge Brad Waken of OK on 4-21-2003. The thread has had contributors off and on but never, until now, has there been the voluminous activity which followed upon the post to the thread on 3-8-08 by member Brent Merrill. Jim O'Brien of PA [ P.N.P. 2000-2001] responded on 3-10-08 to the post of 3-8-08. At the time of these posts Brad Waken of OK was serving as Chief Judge and Paul J. Bryant of KS was ably serving as Certification Supervisor, a position he held from at least 1987 until his death. Upon Bryant's death the position was filled by Jim O'Brien, a position he holds to this day. The Certification Supervisor position was created by the By-Laws of the club adopted 1-14-1960 , cf. Article VIII Duties of Officers , Section 7. Certification Supervisor. These By-Laws were Revised March 2003 and are printed at pages 79 - 82 of the 2015-2016 Membership Directory. The 1960 By-Laws specifically described the Certification Supervisor duties and stated that "This person works directly under the Board of Directors and with a certification Review Group." The revised By-Laws of 2003 do not contain the specifics of Article VIII , Section 7 cited above. In fact the Certification Supervisor position is not contained in the revised By-Laws of 2003. At page 83 of the 2015-2016 Membership Directory appear "Job Descriptions", including Certification Supervisor but I do not believe this list is officially a part of the By-Laws. Perhaps the Board of Directors intended that it be so considered. I do not know. The important take-away for me in all of this is that in order to address the Certification issues a dialogue must be undertaken with the Board of Directors, the Certification Supervisor and the Certification Review Group. The entire discussion of "Certification" must initially be broad-based to include asking the question as to whether the process is productive and necessary to establishment of standards of "Restoration and Preservation" of ACD automobiles, which was the basis of the formation of the club by founder Harry Denhard in 1952. The world was much simpler 65 years ago but the basic rationale for the ACD Club remains the same. I happen to think that an ordered, equitable and transparent system of certifying the authenticity of ACD cars is very worthwhile, in order to preserve the remarkable engineering and stylistic history which they exemplify. While the Judging Rules are inextricably associated with Certification, the two areas of club activity and focus can at the same time be independent of one another. In spite of apparent earlier efforts to make Certification a condition precedent to entry of an automobile into the judging process for awards, it appears that we are not so structured at this time. As the saying goes "they are only original once", and we need to respect and value originality. Much can be learned from originality about the history of our Auburn , Cord and Duesenberg automobiles.

All of the above discussion brings me to one of the points recently made in posts to the Certification Team thread on 2-6-17 by member Curt Schultz of WI and Brent Merrill, are there in fact "Categories" in the certification procedures ? The only reference which I have been thus far able to find to "Category 1" and "Category 2" certification is contained in the 1987-1988 Membership Directory at pp. 112-113. There, under Judging Rules #4, it is stated [ " Auburn , Cord and Duesenberg automobiles may be eligible for judging and awards if the entry fulfills the following criteria. A. ENTRANT -the car must be entered by a current member of the ACD Club. B. ORIGIN - The car must have been manufactured by the Auburn Automobile Co. or the Duesenberg Co. before 1940. C. CHASSIS - The chassis must be of original origin , as defined above, and retain at least the original frame, engine, drive train and running gear. D. - BODY - Category No. 1 -- An original body built before 1940, either by the Auburn Automobile Co. or a subsidiary of (sic) by a custom body builder, originally for an Auburn, Cord or Duesenberg chassis. Category No. 2 -- Re-bodied -- in accordance with the minutes of the Board of Directors Meeting of September 4 , 1970, replica bodies will be accepted as original provided they are replicas of styles produced prior to 1938 and of original materials (wood and metal). All other cars must be appealed to the Judging Committee for classification." ]. Well, there you have it. This rule, assuming that it has not been rescinded or revoked by subsequent action by the Board of Directors, is the law of the land on the question/issue of judging categories. Note that there is no mention of certification categories, ONLY as to judging. The construction of Judging Rule #4 is amorphous and subject to appeal only to the Judging Committee. Note too that the category refers ONLY to the subject of bodies. The most recent statement of Judging Policy found at p.68 of the 2015-2016 Membership Directory makes no mention of judging " Categories".

The bottom line for this member is that we have a true can of worms. I realize that this message has been very long and disjointed, for which I apologize. This is a very complex area of organization, rule making and implementation. We have had 65 years since 1952, during which many dedicated and knowledgeable people have grappled with these problems presented. Tempers run high on issues of this kind, particularly when members have expended countless hours and funds on restoration and preservation of their automobile/s , but I am hopeful that the issues and conflicts can be resolved with a view toward uniformity, and equity of application, of carefully thought out rules and standards for both Certification and Judging. We owe this to our founders and all current and future members.

I stand ready to discuss dispassionately and objectively this entire issue and look forward to the response of officers and membership at large. Let us move forward together to make our club even better. Thank you, Jonathan ( Jack ) Richards , #1080 at Chesterfield, Missouri.
The following user(s) said Thank You: 1748 S

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  • Curt Schulze
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30 Jul 2021 23:38 #43621 by Curt Schulze
Replied by Curt Schulze on topic Judging of a non-certified car
I can say that that green speedster took me six years to build. It was restored with the same exacting standards if not better, that my 36 s/c phaeton was that took best Auburn. There was a deduction of a certain amount of points which put it in 2nd place.

The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Be of Good Cheer
Curt

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  • JIM.OBRIEN
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30 Jul 2021 18:51 #43617 by JIM.OBRIEN
Replied by JIM.OBRIEN on topic Judging of a non-certified car
You are correct Mike.

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  • mikespeed35
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30 Jul 2021 03:19 #43610 by mikespeed35
Replied by mikespeed35 on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Just want to clarify Jim's response. Noncertified cars can win anything, including Best of Show. Jim will correct me if I am wrong.
CORDiallyMike

Mike Huffman

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30 Jul 2021 01:23 #43608 by JIM.OBRIEN
Replied by JIM.OBRIEN on topic Judging of a non-certified car
Yes non-certified cars can be judged. There is no penalty for the car not being certified.

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  • ilikescars
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29 Jul 2021 22:27 #43604 by ilikescars
Judging of a non-certified car was created by ilikescars
Back in 2011, Joel Givner stated in a post that non-certified cars can be judged. My question is: Can a non certified car receive a first place award?

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