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Rosanky Museum Liquidation

  • Greg Riley
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19 May 2012 23:31 #22891 by Greg Riley
Replied by Greg Riley on topic Rosanky Museum Liquidation
Things have been a little crazy for me so I've neglected to check in for a while. Always interesting to see a post that garners so many opinions and responses.

As to the car, I can't speak to any of the facts as Chris, Randy and others can. Regardless this seems to me a very low cost entrance into the Dusenberg experience. If it becomes part of a museum collection I doubt anyone will question the finer points of how it came to be, and if the lucky new owner chooses to run the wheels of it as I would, well so much the better <!-- s:? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" /><!-- s:? -->

Greg Riley

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  • RandyEma
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14 May 2012 15:25 #22840 by RandyEma
Replied by RandyEma on topic Rosanky Museum Liquidation
No Original Toursters built this way. Randy

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  • West Peterson
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14 May 2012 14:18 #22839 by West Peterson
Replied by West Peterson on topic Rosanky Museum Liquidation
Kind of interesting looking with the skirted fenders and the split-rim wheels. Were there some done that way "back in the day"?

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  • landmark
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14 May 2012 13:50 #22838 by landmark
Replied by landmark on topic Rosanky Museum Liquidation

alsancle wrote: I wish I had Ted's paperwork with the J & chassis numbers. But I'll provide an overview. There were 10 or 11 Billing's Touristers. It went something like this:

1. Original engine, tranny, rear end, firewall, instruments etc. Just the body swap.
2.
3.
...
11. Mostly original engine, buick rear end, truck tranny, reproduction instruments, reproduction firewall, reproduction chassis, etc. CAST front axle.

The first cars were great and should be valued accordingly. The last cars had a J engine and that was about it. The biggest deal is the front axle which were cast reproductions not forged. You cannot adjust a cast axle by heating it. These cars should be valued less. Everything in between is a gradual deviation from #1.

If the car in question was a lower number then I think it was a bargain. If the car in question was higher then maybe the price was appropriate. I do not know where this particular car falls on the spectrum.



Hello,

it looks like there is an other Billings "Duesenberg" :rolleyes: on the market:

Engine-no. 356? an no chassis-number...

www.stlouiscarmuseum.com/stlcarm ... sp?id=1600

Cheers

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

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17 Apr 2012 17:19 #22630 by alsancle
Replied by alsancle on topic Rosanky Museum Liquidation
I wish I had Ted's paperwork with the J &amp; chassis numbers. But I'll provide an overview. There were 10 or 11 Billing's Touristers. It went something like this:

1. Original engine, tranny, rear end, firewall, instruments etc. Just the body swap.
2.
3.
...
11. Mostly original engine, buick rear end, truck tranny, reproduction instruments, reproduction firewall, reproduction chassis, etc. CAST front axle.

The first cars were great and should be valued accordingly. The last cars had a J engine and that was about it. The biggest deal is the front axle which were cast reproductions not forged. You cannot adjust a cast axle by heating it. These cars should be valued less. Everything in between is a gradual deviation from #1.

If the car in question was a lower number then I think it was a bargain. If the car in question was higher then maybe the price was appropriate. I do not know where this particular car falls on the spectrum.

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  • 1748 S
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17 Apr 2012 16:23 #22629 by 1748 S
Replied by 1748 S on topic Rosanky Museum Liquidation

DJT wrote: lol - took awhile to sink in.. the building behind the car (J375 SJ) made the car look like it had an ugly square top with a pickup bed on the back. Thinking yeah... that price fits if it looks like that. <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->

never-mind... I'll go crawl back under my rock



Whenever a picture is taken of anything. The back ground must be factured into what someone is going to see. I have seen some terrible blurry pictures of items someone is attempting to sell. I sometimes wonder what a person is trying to hide in a blurred pic. As noted, this car has the appearance of a square top but looking closer its the building in the back ground as noted above. Its shocking the amount of information on this car. Its also good to know "people" are in the know about every little item about these wonderful cars too. Heres hopeing the new owner of this car knew what he was buying.

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  • RandyEma
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17 Apr 2012 15:19 #22628 by RandyEma
Replied by RandyEma on topic Rosanky Museum Liquidation
Yes Replica SC

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17 Apr 2012 14:51 #22627 by DJT
Replied by DJT on topic Rosanky Museum Liquidation
lol - took awhile to sink in.. the building behind the car (J375 SJ) made the car look like it had an ugly square top with a pickup bed on the back. Thinking yeah... that price fits if it looks like that. <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->

never-mind... I'll go crawl back under my rock

-David
member: Professional Photographer Association
TnT Shutterbug Photography
www.tntshutterbugphotography.com

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  • Mike Brady
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17 Apr 2012 14:29 #22626 by Mike Brady
Replied by Mike Brady on topic Rosanky Museum Liquidation
It would appear that all the bidders came to the same conclusion as Chris.

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  • Chris Summers
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17 Apr 2012 14:01 #22624 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Rosanky Museum Liquidation
Let me rephrase that: Never in any scholarly source. Not in Roe, not in Elbert, not in Malks, not in Wolff.

Chris Summers
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  • West Peterson
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17 Apr 2012 13:59 #22623 by West Peterson
Replied by West Peterson on topic Rosanky Museum Liquidation
The quote from the auction company states that it was supercharged from the factory, as I noted in my previous post.

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  • Chris Summers
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17 Apr 2012 13:50 #22622 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Rosanky Museum Liquidation
A.J., yes it is.

The original car J-375 / 2394 is believed to have been a Willoughby Berline, which Marshall Merkes parted out c. 1949. In the 1970s Leo Gephart got some remains of the car, most notably most of the original engine, and had Ted Billing make him a car. Ray Wolff's notes make no mention of the original frame being part of the project or surviving post 1949, and note "engine only" surviving in the Billing recreation. The current frame is numbered 2394 but I believe it to be a recreation.

I have never seen any mention of the engine in this car being supercharged at any point prior to the construction of the Tourster in the 1970s. I believe the current supercharger is a Gephart reproduction, given the car's history.

As always, I welcome alternative versions of the history. Our Duesenberg Historian should chime in at some point with his opinions. Let's avoid talk of lawsuits, however.

Chris Summers
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17 Apr 2012 13:37 #22621 by alsancle
Replied by alsancle on topic Rosanky Museum Liquidation
Btw,

An original SJ blower would bring more than 1/2 of what this car sold for all on it's own.

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17 Apr 2012 13:36 #22620 by alsancle
Replied by alsancle on topic Rosanky Museum Liquidation
I was going to respond to this and then thought better. I guess I'll just say a couple of things. It is possible this was the deal of the century, or it is also possible Chris is giving good advice. In this case I don't really know.

Chris, is this one of Ted's cars?

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  • West Peterson
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17 Apr 2012 12:47 #22619 by West Peterson
Replied by West Peterson on topic Rosanky Museum Liquidation
I am certainly aware of that. This is different. Here's the auction description. If what you say above is true, I'd say the auction listing is blatantly wrong.

"When chassis 2394, a long wheelbase version, left the Indianapolis factory, it had mounted on it engine J375, supercharged from the factory and just as it is presented today. ... In the world of Duesenbergs to find an SJ model is rare. To find one that is still with its original chassis and even more special."

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  • Chris Summers
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17 Apr 2012 12:31 #22618 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Rosanky Museum Liquidation
I was once told that everything you need to know about a car at auction is what the catalog doesn't say. It's always worked for me.

Due diligence, due diligence, due diligence.

Chris Summers
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  • West Peterson
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17 Apr 2012 12:22 #22617 by West Peterson
Replied by West Peterson on topic Rosanky Museum Liquidation
Interesting. If I remember correctly, the auction company description more than led one to believe it was an original SJ chassis/engine, etc.

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  • Chris Summers
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17 Apr 2012 06:56 #22616 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Rosanky Museum Liquidation
The car is not an original SJ. It was built in the 1970s by Ted Billing using an original engine (J-375) with a Gephart reproduction supercharger and a reproduction frame numbered as original. This engine was not originally supercharged. I've heard conflicting reports on its mechanical condition although Burdick had the car out and running at the Texas Meet a few years ago. I would, of course, be very interested in speaking with the new owner.

Chris Summers
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  • West Peterson
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16 Apr 2012 15:08 #22611 by West Peterson
Replied by West Peterson on topic Rosanky Museum Liquidation
I agree. That seems like the buy of the decade for those who play in that sand box.

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  • SJLarry
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16 Apr 2012 13:08 #22609 by SJLarry
Replied by SJLarry on topic Rosanky Museum Liquidation
Greg,

I'm curious...why did J375 SJ sell at what to me seems to be such a low price. OK, I understand its not the original body, but that's not su unusual for a Duesneberg. If this is truly an original SJ with the original chassis and engine, it seems like it should have sold for a lot more than $375k.

Thoughts?

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  • Greg Riley
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04 Mar 2012 16:13 #22351 by Greg Riley
Rosanky Museum Liquidation was created by Greg Riley
J375 SJ sold at Rosanky for $315,000 (before premium.) I talked at length to the new owner. One hell of a nice guy, he plans to use the car regularly for tours. I can't think of a better way to spread the gospel of Duesenberg. He reportedly bought 30+ other cars.

When I left yesterday Franay Princess J365 Chassis 2385 remained unsold. Bidding opened at $1,000,000 and was closed at $1,900,000. However, they may have had a deal working after it crossed the block.

My full magazine report to follow.

Greg Riley

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