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Duesenbergs sold new to germany and Duesenberg bodied by Fig

  • Chris Summers
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10 Aug 2011 15:36 #20710 by Chris Summers
That's a long, controversial story that will go into Duesy Notes eventually. The car was originally bodied as a speedster by Figoni but the present body is a replica of the original. The original body, meanwhile, is restored on another chassis but hasn't been seen in public for so long that most people have forgotten about it.

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10 Aug 2011 15:13 #20707 by

Chris Summers wrote:
Figoni bodies:

J-263 / chassis unknown - Convertible Victoria - no longer in existence
J-465 / 2509 - Speedster - in NJ
J-369 / 2384 (probably) - Sedan - no longer in existence

them.


Hi Chris,
is the speedster body on the chassis 2509 original?
thanks
Jan

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  • Bob Roller
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04 Aug 2011 17:33 #20663 by Bob Roller
Replied by Bob Roller on topic Bad reputation of U.S.Cars in Germany
That is a sad comment indeed. They must have a better reputation than Jaguar did in years past. Helmut Mohr in Mayen/Hausen told me that in addition to making muzzle loading guns and small machine shop jobs,he and his father,Alfons who is now deceased would take in engines to rebuild. They once got in a Jaguar V12 for a complete overhaul and when they took it apart,Alfons took measurements on all 12 cylinders and found that no two were the same size and he finally,after establishing the largest one,rebored the other 11 to match it and they proceeded with the rebuild and got the Jag back on the Bahn again. Helmut also said the big Jaguars did not have a good reputation and didn't stand up to the high speed driving on German Autobahns.I don't know about the Ford built Jags but I have worked on enough of the pre-Ford models to know that I don't want one. I have heard no reports on the ones made by Tata.
Our Consumer Report Magazine says the top three imported cars for causing problems are Mercedes,BMW and Audi. Sounds like they rank right up there with the Yugo. I have worked on those as well and between these three and Jaguar,I think I will stay with my Lincoln Town Car which seems to work well.

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  • landmark
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03 Aug 2011 23:08 #20656 by landmark
Replied by landmark on topic Re: History/Zeitgeschichte

Bob Roller wrote: Zeitgeschichte,the face or story of time.In the days of E.LCord's auto/industrial empire,sinister events were transpiring and anyone who won't learn from them may damned well have to relive them. ONE major financial catastrophe and the party restarts all over again. What happened to and IN the auto industry were certainly entertwined when America did get involved in WW2 officially after Pearl Harbor. The independent makers,Packard,Nash.Hudson,Studebaker,Willys were all heavily engaged in war production. Notably absent was Cord's industrial empire. Duesenbergs made a small contibution in the well known Pratt&Whitney tests but only 4 cars were involved but the production of the powerful "J" engine was over and no chance of revival.
Packard furnished 55,000 V12 aircraft engines and several thousand more V12 marine engines and possibly some air cooled radial engines as well. Studebaker kept our military and the Russians supplied with reliable trucks.Hudson and Nash made fuselage sections for heavy bombers that rolled out of Ford's Willow Run plant at the rate of one per hour, Willys produced the ubiquitous "JEEP" and I worked on more that one of them in my Army days(1954-1963)
Field Marshall Rommel, in a frank talk with Hitler said that "When the industrial power of America shows up on any battles we are engaged in,we have lost with no hope of victory later".Of course Hitler blew up right on cue.
There is plenty of room for history on these forums and the story of the American automobile is one of free wheeling enterprise and a "Get out of the way"attitude that is sadly lacking today.
Zuviele zeitgeschichte ist nicht genug,Nicht Wahr?

Bob Roller



Hello,

I think you are right. Let me tell you a "visitors" point of view:

In the european market american software companies are strong with their products, applications and services. But in the industrial branches there are not many US made products really strong.
For example, allmost of american made cars which has been sold in Europe are Mercedes-Benz (Tuscaloosa) and BMW (Spartanburg). American made cars from american branches are a very small minority here. US-cars have not the best quality-reputation here and the fuel consumption seems to high. Today unleaded fuel cost here 1.60 Euro/Liter which means $ 8.50/gallon.

Since five or six years the sales of Chevrolet-cars increased in Germany, because since that time the south-korean made Daewoo cars has been sold as Chevrolet.

Matt

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Wilhelm Busch

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  • Josh Malks
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03 Aug 2011 22:01 #20653 by Josh Malks
Yes, Matt, Lycoming was another wholly-owned subsidiary of the Auburn Automobile Company. I did not know exactly what they built during WWII. Thanks.

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  • landmark
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03 Aug 2011 21:49 #20652 by landmark
Hello,

doesn't owned E.L. Cord the Lycoming Company as well?

Lycoming produced engines for tanks and aircrafts during W.W.II

Matt

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03 Aug 2011 20:35 #20651 by Josh Malks
Bob's comments are important and accurate.

It's true that E.L. Cord was no longer involved with the companies that had comprised his automotive empire. But they went on contributing to the war effort by themselves.

Central Manufacturing Company of Connersville, IN was a subsidiary of the Auburn Automobile Company. They stamped the body parts for late Auburns and Cord 810/812 and assembled both cars. Central continued making sheetmetal parts and assemblies as sub-contractors until the war, and bomber nacelles and wing parts-- including wings for the B-24 -- after 1941. In 1942 it changed its name to American-Central.

And, while most folks think of Jeeps as being Willys or Ford products, in fact those companies only built the chassis. The bodies -- 445,000 of them -- were made by Central in Connersville and came down the same assembly lines down which Cords had come only a few years earlier. Finished bodies were shipped to Toledo and Dearborn for mounting on the chassis. Central built 200,000 Jeep trailers, too.

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  • Chris Summers
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03 Aug 2011 20:11 #20650 by Chris Summers
Hilla looks like an interesting sort, doesn't she? Monied arts patron of the 1930s personified.

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03 Aug 2011 20:02 #20649 by Bob Roller
Replied by Bob Roller on topic History/Zeitgeschichte
Zeitgeschichte,the face or story of time.In the days of E.LCord's auto/industrial empire,sinister events were transpiring and anyone who won't learn from them may damned well have to relive them. ONE major financial catastrophe and the party restarts all over again. What happened to and IN the auto industry were certainly entertwined when America did get involved in WW2 officially after Pearl Harbor. The independent makers,Packard,Nash.Hudson,Studebaker,Willys were all heavily engaged in war production. Notably absent was Cord's industrial empire. Duesenbergs made a small contibution in the well known Pratt&Whitney tests but only 4 cars were involved but the production of the powerful "J" engine was over and no chance of revival.
Packard furnished 55,000 V12 aircraft engines and several thousand more V12 marine engines and possibly some air cooled radial engines as well. Studebaker kept our military and the Russians supplied with reliable trucks.Hudson and Nash made fuselage sections for heavy bombers that rolled out of Ford's Willow Run plant at the rate of one per hour, Willys produced the ubiquitous "JEEP" and I worked on more that one of them in my Army days(1954-1963)
Field Marshall Rommel, in a frank talk with Hitler said that "When the industrial power of America shows up on any battles we are engaged in,we have lost with no hope of victory later".Of course Hitler blew up right on cue.
There is plenty of room for history on these forums and the story of the American automobile is one of free wheeling enterprise and a "Get out of the way"attitude that is sadly lacking today.
Zuviele zeitgeschichte ist nicht genug,Nicht Wahr?

Bob Roller

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03 Aug 2011 17:30 #20648 by Josh Malks
landmark is quite right. From 1940 on the US tried to walk a thin line between supporting Great Britain and declaring war on Germany.

Bauer first inquired about a Duesenberg chassis in March 1937. He came to the US (to stay) in March 1938 when the chassis was supposed to be shipped to Germany, but wasn't. This was 18 months before WWII began with Hitler's attack on Poland. Roosevelt hated Hitler, and the feeling was certainly mutual. But when Rudolf Bauer bought his Duesenberg chassis the war in Europe had not yet begun.

'Nuff history. Back to Duesenbergs.

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03 Aug 2011 02:03 #20646 by cstebbins
Here's Hilla.

This certifies that this Cord automobile has been driven 110.8 miles per hour before delivery - Ab Jenkins

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02 Aug 2011 11:44 #20642 by Bob Roller
Replied by Bob Roller on topic Duesenbergs in Europe
SJ542 was sold new in Paris and came to America before 1940. There was one,I think a Murphy CC that was commandeered by the Wehrmacht that belonged to the embassy of a country friendly to Hitler and those that did the commandeering got a stern letter ordering its return.The order was signed by Hitler himself. The D'Iteren Freres bodied car was obviously Eurpean and the man that I asked about it at Auburn had no idea when it came to America. He may not have been the owner and was only showing the car for whoever did own it. It had a steel body instead of aluminum.
J159 was photgraphed at Motor DeLux and it was a Barker Town Car with right hand drive. I have seen it at Auburn on different occassions.
Not all European sales of Duesenbergs involved European coach work and were cars finished here and shipped to France ready to go.
I once read an article about the oil that was available there and there were reports of bearing failures because it was not up to the job of properly lubricating the engine.Any know anything about this?? I think I gave the magazine to Chris.

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  • Chris Summers
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02 Aug 2011 10:46 #20640 by Chris Summers
Josh's comment related to Duesenbergs being used as a big, imposing car in movies that "looked" like the car Hitler would drive or be driven in. At least one J was displayed in carnivals as "Hitler's car" and a well-known Judkins Berline was sent to the scrappers during WWII by its owner because the owner thought it was German. Mistaken identity.

It is feasible that like a lot of luxury cars left in occupied countries before the war, a few European Duesenbergs were commandeered by the occupying forces. I was told that Murphy Convertible Coupe J-527 / 2406 (former J-401) was used briefly in Paris in such a manner and that there was documentation held by a former owner to that effect.

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  • landmark
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02 Aug 2011 08:32 #20639 by landmark

Josh Malks wrote: Bob, I don't believe so. America was neutral for two more years after the start of WWII in Europe in 1939. Hitler did whatever he could to make nice to America, even though he actually hated and feared us. He did not want to "awaken the sleeping giant" as Admiral Yamomoto feared Japan had done with Pearl Harbor...


Hello Josh,

you are not wrong with that, but lately since 1940 the USA supported Great Britain with huge amounts of Oil, food and warmaterial, there was an undeclared war between US and Hitler-Deutschland. I mean the german submarine attacks to atlantic convois.

It was a dark age and I hope something like that will never happen again!

I agree with Bob Rollers opinion, as I know the european importer was in Paris and for to buy a foreign car it had to be paid a high import-custom-tax, witch made foreign cars very expensive.

Nazi-Officials drove Mercedes-Benz, Maybach and Horch cars. It could be possible that after the occupation of france there were high prices cars inpounded by the Wehrmacht, maybe Duesebergs but I haven't seen a foto of something like that.

Josh Malks wrote:
...Besides, haven't WWII movies shown us many Nazis riding in those "German" Duesenbergs?


Don't forget movies never show reality at all, it is fiction.

Matt

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02 Aug 2011 00:33 #20636 by Josh Malks
Bob, I don't believe so. America was neutral for two more years after the start of WWII in Europe in 1939. Hitler did whatever he could to make nice to America, even though he actually hated and feared us. He did not want to "awaken the sleeping giant" as Admiral Yamomoto feared Japan had done with Pearl Harbor.

Besides, haven't WWII movies shown us many Nazis riding in those "German" Duesenbergs?

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02 Aug 2011 00:16 #20635 by Bob Roller
Replied by Bob Roller on topic New Duesenbergs in Germany
I think I read somewhere that the Model "A" Duesenbergs had a represntation in Berlin but I may be off base on that. Motor DeLux in Paris was the "J" dealer in the pre-war years and I think about 60 "J"and "SJ"s were sold thru that operation. Any new "J"s that turned up in Germany were probably purchased in France. After 1933,and I'm speculating now,any wealthy German buying a new Duesenberg could have been considered as "DIsloyal to the Fatherland."

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01 Aug 2011 15:05 #20622 by Josh Malks
Bob, "currency speculation" was a standard charge used by the Nazis to strip Jews of their money. Just being Jewish in Germany in the 1930s was enough to "get in trouble with the Nazis".

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31 Jul 2011 20:46 #20617 by landmark
Replied by landmark on topic Re: J397 Rudolph Bauer Car

Bob Roller wrote:
...In one magazine article I read that some lady art fancier or maybe a critic gave Bauer Hell for squandering money on outrageous motor cars...

Bob Roller


Hello Bob,

I think that lady was Hilla von Rebay (german born painter), she met Solomon R. Guggenheim in 1927 and became a close confidant to him. Mrs. von Rebay became founding director and curator of the Solomon R. Guggenheim foundation.
She introduced Rudolf Bauer to S.Guggenheim in 1928 and induced that Guggemheim sponsor R. Bauer for the next two decades.

So the money for the Duesy was caused by her but paid by Guggenheim.

Hilla von Rebay and R. Bauer met the first time in Germany during the first WW. and became lovers for some time.

Matt

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31 Jul 2011 19:06 #20616 by Bob Roller
Replied by Bob Roller on topic J397 Rudolph Bauer Car
What old Rudy got was a doctored chassis and a patched up engine apparently with a used supercharger as well.
The story I heard was that he intended to have the chassis bodied by Erdmann&Rossi in Germany but got in trouble with the Nazis for currency speculation or something. Guggenheim bailed him out supposedly by enriching the coffers of Reichsmarshall Hermann Goering and he in turn threw Bauer out of the country. When he got to the USA he at once retrieved the chassis and consigned it to Rollson (Rollston) and the skills of Rudy Creteur and his custom body shop. It was finished and road ready by 1940. This car is like no other car,Duesenberg or otherwise.It is a bumper to bumper custom built car of grand rank. I have examined it closely with the permission of Bill Petit who then owned it and have ridden in it. It has perhaps 12,000 miles on it now and still has or so I've been told,the original tires. I did help Mr.Petit get a spare tire freed from the double stack on the rear of the car with a little WD40 and some carefull prying. In one magazine article I read that some lady art fancier or maybe a critic gave Bauer Hell for squandering money on outrageous motor cars. Outrageous? Maybe.Interesting,definetly and I for one am glad old Rudy had it done here in America and he was probably glad to be free from the GeStaPo for good.

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  • landmark
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25 Jul 2011 18:01 #20568 by landmark

Chris Summers wrote: I think you have the Adler book, which has photos ...convertible victoria...


Thanx,

found the picture of the convertible victoria. For a Figoni styled body it looks very conservative.

Matt

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25 Jul 2011 17:53 #20567 by Chris Summers
I think you have the Adler book, which has photos of at least the speedster and the convertible victoria. The sedan is pictured in Malks and Roe.

Yes, prices for the Roe book are outrageous, but as I said, hopefully you only have to buy it once.

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  • landmark
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25 Jul 2011 17:50 #20566 by landmark
Chris, thank you for the informations!

Are there fotos existing of the lost figoni bodied Duesenbergs?

The Elbert Book is in my bookshelf <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> Never heart before about the Malks book, found now in the net, sounds interresting.

And I think the Roe-Book (must be "goldplated" <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> :rolleyes: ) is one for under my chrismas-tree.

Matt

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  • Chris Summers
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25 Jul 2011 17:27 #20565 by Chris Summers
Matt, the SAH magazine lists the following:

"A LeBaron bodied car (probably a phaeton) owned by a Herr Becker from Berlin competed at the Avus ring in Berlin against a Mercedes SSK in 1936."

No other information on that car is known to me but the article does say that the driver of the SSK was Rudolf Bauer, who was then inspired to have his Duesenberg built. That car did, as you mentioned, never leave the US for Europe; purportedly Erdmann &amp; Rossi was to have built the body but WWII made that impossible and so Rollson was used instead.

Figoni bodies:

J-263 / chassis unknown - Convertible Victoria - no longer in existence
J-465 / 2509 - Speedster - in NJ
J-369 / 2384 (probably) - Sedan - no longer in existence

The Roe and Malks books on Duesenberg both have information on all the known European-bodied cars but not as extensive as the SAH magazine. You might be able to find a copy through eBay but it is not online to my knowledge. Happy hunting.

Incidentally, while we're on the subject for you, the Roe, Malks, and Elbert books are all essential to a good Duesenberg library (all available used online, although not cheaply, but a good book is a lifelong investment). You seem like the scholarly type, I think you would enjoy them.

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  • landmark
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25 Jul 2011 17:09 #20564 by landmark
Hello,

I like to know, if there were Model J cars sold new to Germany? I have never heart about a J (before W.W.II) in Germany. Yes of course there is the 1940 Rudolph Bauer Town car (rebodied J-397/2563), which was sometimes called the german Duesy, but I think Mr. Bauer owned and drove it in the United States.

The other point I like to know about is; according to the D.Adler book there will be three model J bodied by the french bodyshop Figoni.
I know about one car remaining, the "French Speedster" J-465. What kind of bodies have had the other two cars and have them survived till today? Figoni and Falaschi have bodied some very spectacular cars for Talbot and Delahaye...

Matt

B.T.W. Chris Summers wrote in an other thread that in "...the Summer 1996 (No. 30) issue of the Society of Automotive Historians's "Automotive History Review" includes as good a history of European Duesenbergs, including breakdowns of cars by coachbuilder and country and numerous hard-to-find photographs, as has ever been published..."

Is that article somewhere online visible? I haven't found it in the net.

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