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Letourneur et Marchand Duesenberg?

  • Bob Roller
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14 Feb 2011 01:02 #19237 by Bob Roller
Replied by Bob Roller on topic Engine swap
Joe,
You aren't hijacking anything altho I heard that one swap into the Auburn was done by Jim Hoe. It matters not because it was part of the story no matter who did it.
At least one Auburn speedster was really a speedster and that is what counted. What car was J209 originally in?
I think J434 was in one of the two Dietrich bodied J's and was destroyed in a fire in Chicago while in storage during WW2 gas rationing. I think this car was one that belonged to a neighbor when we lived in Illinois about 30 miles West of Chicago. My mother told me about it and I wrote about it in the articles that I taped for Ted McPhail and were published in the ACD Newsletter in the early 90's.I think McPhail actually contacted the old man but his mind was pretty well gone and he rembered it only as a large,powerful car.

Bob Roller

Bob Roller

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  • memaerobilia
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13 Feb 2011 18:45 #19227 by memaerobilia
Replied by memaerobilia on topic Re: Marquis de Whatshisname?

Bob Roller wrote: ... replaced J209 which at one time had been shoe horned into an Auburn speedster so it could BE a speedster in reality.
Bob Roller

Bob;
I don't want to highjack the thread, but you can see the before & after photos of the Auburn Speedster that at one time carried J209 engine. My father did the initial conversion with J-434. This was later swapped for J-209. I explained some details of the conversion in the thread "Auberg Duesenburn" in the General Discussion section..

Joe G.
hundreds of our early photos or planes, racecars, customs classics @ www.memaerobilia.com

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  • Steve Derus
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13 Feb 2011 18:36 #19226 by Steve Derus
Replied by Steve Derus on topic Letourneur et Marchand Duesenberg?

Back in the 1950's when I was active with these cars,we never thought about the "J'number and it wasn't until many years later I ever knew what any of them were
because it just didn't matter.


Bob,
I remember it that way also here on the west coast in the 1950's and into the early 1960's.

My dad owned three J's at various times during that era, and a lot of spare parts. I remember as a kid going to ACD meets and CCCA meets and listening to all the talk, and never once did I hear of a Model J being referred to by its numbers. It was always the owner's name, or maybe the historical significance of the car used to id it, such as the Garbo Car, the Mae West car, the Gary Cooper Car, the Marion Davies car, etc.

I visited Marshall Merkes shop several times with my dad and they would talk for hours about Duesenbergs and I don't remember hearing engine or chassis numbers mentioned.

Steve

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  • Bob Roller
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13 Feb 2011 18:18 #19224 by Bob Roller
Replied by Bob Roller on topic Marquis de Whatshisname?
Robbie,
Don't worry about skipping a generation .That's why erasers are on pencils. If I had a name like the one you just posted for this fellow,I would be known as Al Leighton and leave the rest alone. Anyhow,many thanks for posting this.
Moving on to the question about engine and chassis numbers not matching,there was never a plan to match them and as the cars exist today,very few have a crankshaft number that matches the bellhousing number.
Keep in mind that as time passed and values of these cars went out of sight,anything and everything was used in restoration. There has been,due to the unique nature of the car,no or very little interchangeability of mechanical components. The wheels are the only thing I can think of. Some Cadillacs had a center lock wire wheel that could be used on a "J"and they were 20" instead of 19". Melvin Clemans had Cadillac 20 inchers on J396 because of tire availability.
Other than spark plugs, I can think of no engine parts that will work from another make of car.
Back in the 1950's when I was active with these cars,we never thought about the "J'number and it wasn't until many years later I ever knew what any of them were
because it just didn't matter.
Today,the use of the "J"number is a help in attaching an identifier to a specific car like the J396 I just mentioned.When I hear that number,I think of a rough looking old car with a Packard roadster body that we had a lot of fun with harassing modern cars. That engine number today resides in a recreated torpedo phaeton. The Packard bodied roadster today carries J434 which in turn replaced J209 which at one time had been shoe horned into an Auburn speedster so it could BE a speedster in reality.
I hope this isn't too confusing.

Bob Roller

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  • Robbie Marenzi
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13 Feb 2011 04:03 #19219 by Robbie Marenzi
Replied by Robbie Marenzi on topic Letourneur et Marchand Duesenberg?
I hadn't finished posting my previous reply when I realized I'd obviously skipped a generation. If Fon de Portago was born in 1928 he could hardly have bought a Duesenberg in the early 30's? As I found his grandfather the XV Marqu?s de Portago died in 1921, I must assume that the Duesenberg was purchased by his father. Please forgive me for the mistake

Robbie Marenzi
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Argentina

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  • Robbie Marenzi
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13 Feb 2011 03:44 #19218 by Robbie Marenzi
Replied by Robbie Marenzi on topic Letourneur et Marchand Duesenberg?
Bob his given name was: Alfonso Antonio Vicente Eduardo ?ngel Blas Francisco de Borja Cabeza de Vaca y Leighton, and his titles: XVII marqu?s de Portago, XIII conde de la Mejorada y Grande de Espa?a, but he was better known simply as Fon de Portago. Even though he was born in London in 1928 he was heir to one of the most respected titles in Spain and descendant of a Spanish Conquistador that was an "Adelantado" -Governor- of the Rio de la Plata(Buenos Aires) and was the first European to see the Iguaz? Falls. Sadly he is better remembered because of his death, which occurred during the 1957 Mille Miglia. While travelling at 150 mph he blew a tyre on his Ferrari, causing the car to go into the onlooking crowd, killing ten spectators, including five children, de Portago's body was split in two. The result of this accident was not only the deaths of the ten spectators, the driver, co-driver, but also of the Mille Miglia, and all road races in Italy.

Robbie Marenzi
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Argentina

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  • Bob Roller
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12 Feb 2011 21:20 #19213 by Bob Roller
Replied by Bob Roller on topic Letourneur Faux Cabriolet
One VERY good looking car and it's a crime it didn't survive. Does anyone know what happened to it after the French owner.Was the Marquis de Portago French,Spanish or what? Does anyone know his given name apart from the title? Also,going over to the dark side about the dark car,here is something I saw while watching the History Channel some time back. The subject matter was the meeting of Third Reich big shots
at Wansee outside of Berlin in 1942 (I think)All the major bastards were there except Hitler. The film showed some cars parked nearby and I am 90% certain I saw this car for about a second and a half parked there. This opens the question of who owned it.Was it owned legally by a man who was in that meeting or had it been stolen by the Germans after the surrender of France in 1940?
The subject matter of that meeting was what became known as "The Final Solution" which was the green light for genocide in Russia and elewhere.
Has anyone else ever noticed this film clip?It is old and of obvious German origin. This car,whatever it was stood out from the usual assortment of Mercedes and others.

Bob Roller

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  • Steve Derus
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24 Mar 2010 02:15 #16167 by Steve Derus
Replied by Steve Derus on topic Letourneur et Marchand Duesenberg?
I have seen the Packard Letourneur et Marchand coupe belonging to the Snyder family of Orange County CA. Its quite spectacular. It also has the centered door handles.

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  • Chris Summers
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05 Feb 2010 13:05 #15787 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Letourneur et Marchand Duesenberg?
The combination of engine J-201 and chassis 2219 is a guess based on the corresponding engine and chassis numbers of surviving cars whose chassis and engine numbers are close to those, as is the car having been bodied by Letourneur et Marchand.

I have seen the black car identified, in Dennis Adler's Duesenberg book (granted, not always the best scholarly source), as J-466 / 2484. I BELIEVE Ray Wolff also thought that this was the dark car as he lists J-466 / 2484 as being the Marquis de Portago car, and J-201 / 2219 (his guess at numbers for the light car) as being one owned by Jerome Medrano of Paris.

So, to make a long story not much shorter, we can guess at which car is which but we don't know.

Happy to help (if that mishmash helped, that is) and thank you for the photos. The one of the light-colored car with its door opened is new to me.[/i]

Chris Summers
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So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.

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  • aymami
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05 Feb 2010 12:47 #15786 by aymami
Replied by aymami on topic Letourneur et Marchand Duesenberg?
Thank you Chris for the info. I suspected J-466 but I didn't have a clue on the other.
Okay then, I'll try to post from photobucket. (I'm also virgin in this case) Pictures from my friends on Coachbuild. Hi to all of you in this fine forum. (Hey Alsancle <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> )



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  • Chris Summers
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05 Feb 2010 00:58 #15781 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Letourneur et Marchand Duesenberg?
Hi, Pipo,

Welcome to the forum.

You can save your photos to a site like PhotoBucket and post them here by using an IMG link.

The two Letourneur et Marchand cars are believed to have been J-201 / 2219 (that's a guess) and J-466 / 2484. Neither is known to exist. J-466 / 2484 was a Club Faux Cabriolet, a convertible-look coupe with center-mounted door handles. The other is thought to have been similar.

Chris Summers
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  • Steve Derus
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05 Feb 2010 00:08 #15780 by Steve Derus
Replied by Steve Derus on topic Letourneur et Marchand Duesenberg?
Regarding posting photos, go to the picture gallery forum and there you will find instructions on how to do it.

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  • aymami
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04 Feb 2010 23:41 #15778 by aymami
Letourneur et Marchand Duesenberg? was created by aymami
Hi friends. It's my first post.
My question is that there are two Doozies said to be build by Letourneur et Marchand. If this it's true I would appreciate info about them and their numbers.
Another question: How can I add the pictures of them in this post?

Greetings,
Pipo

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