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Twin carbed Duesnebergs

  • Chris Summers
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01 Aug 2011 20:35 #20633 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
I am 99% certain the supercharger on the car is not an original. This is based on my own notes and what I've seen of other records on the car, including Fred Roe's written opinion. The cars that have original blowers tend to be well-documented as such, particularly in the case of twin-carb cars.

The car was hammered in 2003 at $429,000; in 2007 at $660,000; and now in 2011 at $506,000. It reportedly sold in 2010 as well for $390,000 but notice confliction with RM's history of the car. Who's telling the truth?

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  • West Peterson
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01 Aug 2011 20:29 #20632 by West Peterson
Replied by West Peterson on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
Thanks, Chris.
The printed catalog stated that it was fitted with "a Stromberg UUR" carburetor, so I assumed that since they were describing a single carburetor and using no photo from that side (printed version), that meant just one carburetor.
So... is that a reproduction twin-carbureted supercharger? Seems like a pretty-pricy and rare unit to be sitting atop a "bitsa" Duesenberg, eh?

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  • landmark
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01 Aug 2011 20:24 #20631 by landmark
Replied by landmark on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs

West Peterson wrote: The auction catalog doesn't show the carburetor side.


Hello,

on catalog-picture No.3 you can see the Supercharger with the two carbs

www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails.cf ... &Currency=

B.t.w. I had the thought when I first saw the price of that replica. But in addition when s.o. "butcher" the "car" he has an original J-engine plus Supercharger and a many good spareparts like clutch, gearbox, stearing, the complete hydraulic brake system and axles, wheels instruments a.s.o... <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) -->

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

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  • Chris Summers
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01 Aug 2011 20:16 #20630 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
The online catalog entries for both auctions (2007 and 2011) show both sides of the engine but many of the photos appear recycled. I don't have the Carail catalog and wasn't at St. John's to see in the car in person.

www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails.cf ... CarID=r149

www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails.cf ... CarID=r101

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  • West Peterson
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01 Aug 2011 20:09 #20629 by West Peterson
Replied by West Peterson on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
The auction catalog doesn't show the carburetor side.

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  • Chris Summers
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01 Aug 2011 20:08 #20628 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
I am fairly certain that it is a reproduction supercharger. For the record, engine J-134 was not supercharged originally.

I compared the photo from online (p. 1) with the 2011 catalog photo and the 2007 Ponder Collection catalog photo. The engine appears identical in all three.

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  • West Peterson
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01 Aug 2011 19:53 #20627 by West Peterson
Replied by West Peterson on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
Regarding #134: Is that the value of a supercharged engine these days? Is that a reproduction Supercharger???

The auction catalog leads one to believe that the twin carbureted supercharger pictured way back on page one of this thread is now a single carbureted supercharger????

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  • landmark
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01 Aug 2011 19:48 #20626 by landmark
Replied by landmark on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs

Chris Summers wrote: Hi Matt,

Per my files the car has the original engine J-134 with a renumbered bellhousing and a partially reproduction frame built in the early 1970s. I have seen letters documenting that at least part of the frame was reproduction at that point and that what original pieces were used came from 2286. I do not believe that any part of original frame 2159 (the original of J-134) survived.

The body is not the original Walton Speedster, which survives elsewhere, but was built during the restoration.

I will happily eat my words if any contrary evidence can be presented, but at the moment I believe the car to have a replica frame until someone with further knowledge can tell me otherwise.


Hi,

the car (J-134) is sold @RM auction in St. John's to the price of $ 506000

The other Duesenberg (J-288, Murphy Convertible Berline) at that auction had a hammerprice about $ 704000

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
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Wilhelm Busch

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04 Jul 2011 04:27 #20406 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
No skeletons in the closet recorded in its history other than having been bought and sold many times in recent years (prior to its present ownership). That said I've never examined it in person.

It is a past Best Duesenberg winner at Auburn...in 1958.

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04 Jul 2011 00:05 #20405 by alsancle
Replied by alsancle on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
On the subject of Meadow Brook / St Johns, the pictures of J288 were taken in my front yard and I can vouch for it being a really nice driving older restoration. Perhaps Chris can chime in with the history but it feels like a really unmolested car.

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  • Bob Roller
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03 Jul 2011 21:42 #20404 by Bob Roller
Replied by Bob Roller on topic Speedster J364 or whatever.
I liked the thing in spite of the questionable ancestry.The only changes I would make would be to install cycle style front fenders and mount the speed light on a plate or maybe have two of those lights,one on each side so the passenger could aggravate oncoming cars.

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02 Jul 2011 23:52 #20403 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
I believe that the body is the speedster built c. early 1940s for J-153 / 2170 in California; the construction was reportedly very crude but, as Duesenberg enthusiasts have pointed out on this forum, that body had nearly identical lines to the one in question. J-153 / 2170 was later acquired with that body by an enthusiast/restorer who sold the chassis without the body later...meaning that the body stayed with him. That same enthusiast/restorer went on to build the J-364 speedster - using, I believe, that body.

It does greatly resemble the Buehrig drawing and may have been inspired by it, certainly was restored in the inspiration of it.

Last I heard the car was supposedly in VA.

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  • landmark
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02 Jul 2011 21:58 #20402 by landmark
Replied by landmark on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs

Chris Summers wrote: .

...The speedster in question is J-364 and has a body of later construction; the frame is AN original but its identity is a matter of question. In the past the body has been presented as from the period but I doubt it and I do not believe it to have been a Murphy as has also been claimed. As I recall this car has a dual-carb blower but a reproduction. Again, any comments are welcomed.


I think that speedster body was inspired (whenever it was built) by a sketch of Gordon Buehrig, which you can find at the J.L. Elbert book on page 35 (picture 4).
The sketches on that page are titled: Above design sketches, 1929-31 of Duesies never built
Taken from the album of Gordon Buehrig, Chief Designer, Duesenberg, Inc., 1929-33

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

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02 Jul 2011 20:21 #20401 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
Dad is doing wonderfully...easing him off medications and getting him some exercise walking him up and down the hallways. Mom and I are learning all the steps to take care of him while he recuperates. He is mentally about 97% back to normal, some memory loss and confusion from anesthesia and the meds but nothing that can't be dealt with and that won't go away in time. We are very, very happy with the care he's received and with how he is feeling.

The Tourster in question has always been faithfully presented to my knowledge and is with an owner that I imagine knows what it is.

The speedster in question is J-364 and has a body of later construction; the frame is AN original but its identity is a matter of question. In the past the body has been presented as from the period but I doubt it and I do not believe it to have been a Murphy as has also been claimed. As I recall this car has a dual-carb blower but a reproduction. Again, any comments are welcomed.

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  • Bob Roller
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02 Jul 2011 18:04 #20400 by Bob Roller
Replied by Bob Roller on topic No history before 1970?
Chris,an update on your Dad would be good.
Matt,you're welcome about the warm greeting and by the way,Dein Englisch,Ausgezeichnet mein Freund.
A Duesenberg with no history or Zeitgeschichte before 1970 has to be a composite or an out and out fraud.
Has it been represented as an original car and sold as such? If so,who and when?? I think something like that would be a "fun car" if one had a big budget for fun but with no history earlier that the year my first son was born is absurd. I saw some sort of a boat taile speedster at Auburn in 2003 and have pictures of it. It was yellow and black and I have heard different tales about how it came into being, Any ideas??

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02 Jul 2011 17:46 #20399 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
The issue of "what makes a Duesenberg" is an interesting and complicated one. Most cars that were built up like the speedster in question used more or less intact original engines with new frames and bodies; there were some more original cars that actually used original frames, too, and then there are some less original cars that use parts from everywhere. There is at least one rebodied Tourster where I honestly cannot verify the precise origin of a single part on it. It is a nice, well-built, attractive car...with no history before 1970.

I don't have a problem with any of these cars being referred to as Duesenbergs as long as their history is accurately presented.

Buyer beware. It helps to remember that a Duesenberg - or any old car - is, when you break away the history, still a used car, and should be examined with the same scrutiny you give any used car. Asking to see ACD Club Certification and talking to knowledgable people (of which this Club has many) are a good start.

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02 Jul 2011 17:38 #20398 by landmark
Replied by landmark on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs

Chris Summers wrote: Hi Matt,

Per my files the car has the original engine J-134 with a renumbered bellhousing and a partially reproduction frame built in the early 1970s. I have seen letters documenting that at least part of the frame was reproduction at that point and that what original pieces were used came from 2286. I do not believe that any part of original frame 2159 (the original of J-134) survived.

The body is not the original Walton Speedster, which survives elsewhere, but was built during the restoration.

I will happily eat my words if any contrary evidence can be presented, but at the moment I believe the car to have a replica frame until someone with further knowledge can tell me otherwise.


Hi everybody,

first of all

@Chris: all the best to your father.

@Bob Roller: Thanks for the warm welcome.

The catalog for the RM auction in St. John's is now online. The history description of the J-134 has a lot of if, could be and maybe. My english is not perfect, so what I understand of the description is that it is a J-engine mounted on a reproduction frame of onknown production with the original 2159 car firewall.
Body and Supercharger would be made and mounted in the 70ies.

So in my opinion this is a nice looking replica with some original parts mounted. Or I am wrong with my opinion?

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

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  • Steve Derus
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01 Jul 2011 23:58 #20397 by Steve Derus
Replied by Steve Derus on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
Chris,

Wishing your Dad a recovery that is faster than a Duesenberg.

Steve

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01 Jul 2011 17:52 #20395 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
Thanks for the kind words, guys. Mom and I visited him this morning and he is feeling terrific and basically back to his old self aside from the expected fatigue, etc. Nothing that shouldn't be happening is happening. All signs are good for a full recovery.

Chris Summers
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01 Jul 2011 17:08 #20394 by Mike Dube
Replied by Mike Dube on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
Chris,

Sorry to hear this, but it sounds as if he's doing as well as can be expected. My best wishes to your father.

And a big 10-4 that we should all take better care of ourselves.

Mike
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01 Jul 2011 12:49 #20393 by alsancle
Replied by alsancle on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs

fyreline wrote: Nothing but best wishes for you and your dad, Chris . . . hoping for a speedy and complete recovery for him.

Thanks for all you do for us here. It's therapy for us all.


+1

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01 Jul 2011 00:22 #20390 by fyreline
Replied by fyreline on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
Nothing but best wishes for you and your dad, Chris . . . hoping for a speedy and complete recovery for him.

Thanks for all you do for us here. It's therapy for us all.

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30 Jun 2011 23:39 #20389 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
To anyone concerned, yes, Dad had chest pains yesterday afternoon, was taken to the hospital and they performed an emergency quadruple bypass (one artery was fully clogged, three others were damaged). He is stable, awake, alert, and in good spirits, and we are hopeful for a full, although long and slow, recovery. To all of us in the family this has been a wake-up call to take better care of ourselves.

That said, Duesenbergs help me deal with anxiety, so you'll be seeing me on here off and on still when I'm not at the hospital or taking up his slack for the local newspaper.

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  • Bob Roller
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30 Jun 2011 23:34 #20388 by Bob Roller
Replied by Bob Roller on topic Dual carburetor blowers
First to Matt,
Viele Grusse aus Amerika senden Dir und jetz dem fragen Zwei vergassers mt Kompressor.
Now a bit of news.Chris Summers father had a coronary event that put him in the ICU and 4 bypasses later he SEEMS to be getting along OK according to Chris.
In the 1950's,it was said that 6 dual caburetor superchargers were built in the day when these cars were available as a new vehicle.That left 31 with single carburetor blowers. I saw SJ572 in 1952 and it had the dual carburetors on it then and it was installed in a car that originally carried J240. The dual carburetor arrangement on the Duesenberg Special was an obvious conversion of a single carb unit by using a pipe altered to accept the second carburetor.
Harry VanIderstine told me about the problem of power loss with J572 and after thinking it over for a while,it was my opinion that the two carburetors were pushing too much fuel and strangling or flooding the engine because both discharge pipes were blowing into the place once occupied by a single down draft carburetor. The "Special" had twin manifolds which was a much better intake arrangement,
The Gary Cooper SSJ was an SJ from new.I don't know about the so called "Clark Gable"SSJ. The Brunn bodied SJ528 was also supercharged as a new car. I recall Harry Schulzinger saying he had a blower but decided to go with the rebore/high compression pistons instead. It worked quite well.
Personally,I am against adding superchargers,side pipes and manifolds to any car that did not have them in 1937.

Bob Roller

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  • landmark
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30 Jun 2011 12:47 #20383 by landmark
Replied by landmark on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs

Chris Summers wrote: Hi Matt,

Per my files the car has the original engine J-134 with a renumbered bellhousing and a reproduction frame built in the early 1970s. I have seen letters documenting that at least the side members of the frame were reproduction at that point, probably all of it as I have never seen any evidence that original frame 2159 survives.

The body is not the original Walton Speedster, which survives elsewhere, but was built during the restoration.

I will happily eat my words if any contrary evidence can be presented, but at the moment I believe the car to have a replica frame until someone with further knowledge can tell me otherwise.


Hello Chris,

thank you for the information.

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

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30 Jun 2011 12:37 #20382 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
Hi Matt,

Per my files the car has the original engine J-134 with a renumbered bellhousing and a partially reproduction frame built in the early 1970s. I have seen letters documenting that at least part of the frame was reproduction at that point and that what original pieces were used came from 2286. I do not believe that any part of original frame 2159 (the original of J-134) survived.

The body is not the original Walton Speedster, which survives elsewhere, but was built during the restoration.

I will happily eat my words if any contrary evidence can be presented, but at the moment I believe the car to have a replica frame until someone with further knowledge can tell me otherwise.

Chris Summers
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  • landmark
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29 Jun 2011 21:07 #20377 by landmark
Replied by landmark on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs

Chris Summers wrote: The second car is J-134 / replica frame, with a Bob Gassaway-built boattail body, formerly owned by Richard and Linda Kughn.


Hello everybody,

I am new at this forum, so allow me to introduce myself.

My name is Matt, I am german, so please excuse that my english is not perfect.
I live round about 40 mls north of Kirchheide, the birthplace of the Duesenberg-brothers.
I am interested in Duesenberg cars for more than 20 years. I am fascinated by the avant-garde engineering and the wonderful body designs.

My question is; can anyone tell more about the history of the J-134?
It is a very good looking car, but is it a proper historical Duesenberg?

According to J.L. Elbert it was originally delivered as a LeBaron convertible sedan with the frame number 2159. At what time the Gassaway Speedster Body was mounted?
Chris Summers wrote that today a replica frame is mounted. What happened to the original frame? Was the original frame damaged (by accident) and had to be replaced?
The car is now offered by RM Auctions at the St. John's auction. Today there is no (history) discription of the car available at the RM-website, but it is offered with the frame number 2159.

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

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  • Mike Dube
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30 Jan 2009 01:15 #12582 by Mike Dube
Replied by Mike Dube on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
It is not open to the public.

Mike
8-100A

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28 Jan 2009 19:52 #12577 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
The cars belong to Harry Yeaggy, a Club member with contact info in the directory. I suppose you could give him a call.

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28 Jan 2009 19:48 #12576 by paul111
Replied by paul111 on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
Is it open to the public? I live a few miles north and would love to take a look.

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28 Jan 2009 18:43 #12575 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
Cincinnati, OH.

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28 Jan 2009 18:30 #12574 by paul111
Replied by paul111 on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
Where is this collection?

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  • West Peterson
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27 Jan 2009 22:26 #12571 by West Peterson
Replied by West Peterson on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
I bought a brand new Canon SLR. This was one of the first outings that I had a chance to play with it. In addition to the lighting being tricky, it was hard to get a shot without people all around.

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26 Jan 2009 23:53 #12558 by Mike Dube
Replied by Mike Dube on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
Hey West,

The Meteor came out pretty good. That wasn't the easiest place lighting-wise to take a picture.

Mike
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26 Jan 2009 20:03 #12556 by alsancle
Replied by alsancle on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
Notice the different carburetors between the MM and the second set of pictures. The MM has the original large throat UU2s and I believe the second picture is the white truck UUR2 that you can still get new.

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  • West Peterson
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21 Jan 2009 16:32 #12531 by West Peterson
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21 Jan 2009 15:30 #12530 by West Peterson
Replied by West Peterson on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
Ahhh. At first you confused me because I thought 134 was the car in the background. Then I realize that it's a mirror. <!-- s:oops: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed" /><!-- s:oops: -->

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21 Jan 2009 15:09 #12529 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
The second car is J-134 / replica frame, with a Bob Gassaway-built boattail body, formerly owned by Richard and Linda Kughn.

Chris Summers
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21 Jan 2009 13:32 #12525 by West Peterson
Replied by West Peterson on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
From Paul111.
The first is from J494


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19 Jan 2009 20:28 #12492 by West Peterson
Replied by West Peterson on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
No. Be sure to put Duesneberg in the subject line.

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19 Jan 2009 14:51 #12487 by paul111
Replied by paul111 on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
West - Just wondering if you received the emails.

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16 Jan 2009 01:35 #12452 by West Peterson
Replied by West Peterson on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
You can e-mail the photo to me and I'll post for you.
StelvioGT @ yahoo.com

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16 Jan 2009 01:04 #12450 by paul111
Replied by paul111 on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
Also J491, red figoni and a white 31 boat tail that I have pics of but don't know the J# and can't upload.

West - you can start the list right now if one doesn't exist.

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15 Jan 2009 19:01 #12445 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
Gary Cooper's SSJ was definitely supercharged by the factory; there is some controversy as to whether the car Clark Gable was loaned (but never owned) had the blower at first or not.

So one SSJ, the Mormon Meteor, and the spare Meteor engine, now probably J-292, definitely had them when new. I believe J-572 had them from new, or at least from its early days, as well. Randy would be able to give you a more definite answer on this than I.

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So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.

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15 Jan 2009 13:03 #12431 by West Peterson
Replied by West Peterson on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
So... back to the original question: Is there a list of cars with a dual-carb set-up?

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15 Jan 2009 00:47 #12425 by paul111
Replied by paul111 on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
Are you talking about the dual updraughts? I believe J494 had those.

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14 Jan 2009 21:01 #12419 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs

alsancle wrote: I'm just guessing, but I think there were a total of 5 with duals? The two SSJs, the MM, and two spare engines from the MM.


Engine J-572 had dual carbs installed in the 1960s, which would have been before Leo's project as well. That engine came out of the Bohman & Schwartz Convertible Coupe built in 1935 for Serge Mdivani, now owned by Sam & Emily Mann.

Were there two spare engines for the Mormon Meteor?

I've heard it had one, which was probably put into J-292, as A.J. said. There is another, so-called "spare engine" in the ACD Museum. It is very probably not.

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14 Jan 2009 18:50 #12418 by West Peterson
Replied by West Peterson on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
From what you say, it sounds like pretty much all that we see today are the units that Gephart built. I know that the Deloris Del Rio Murphy Town Car and Arturro Keller's LeGrande phaeton both have (had??) dual carbs. They were both owned by Dick Gold at one time, so I'm not sure if he moved the unit back and forth between cars, or if he installed the set-up on both cars.

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14 Jan 2009 18:38 #12417 by alsancle
Replied by alsancle on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
I believe that Leo Gephart's first run of blowers back in the 70s (25 units) were all dual carb. Ted Billing's dual cowl that came out of South America in the early 60s was supposed to have one of the spare engines from the Mormon Meteor. I have a picture of the engine circa 1971 (prior to Leo's project) with the dual carbs. I'm just guessing, but I think there were a total of 5 with duals? The two SSJs, the MM, and two spare engines from the MM.

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14 Jan 2009 16:04 #12412 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Twin carbed Duesnebergs
The convertible coupe you saw has engine J-572 installed (it was originally J-240). Melvin Clemans was the one who put J-572 in the car, and during his ownership the car had dual carburetors with a single manifold; I don't know if he put those on the engine or not. It didn't work too well; supposedly at 85 mph it acted like it was running out of gas.

Nice new toy, West. A substitute for the blue Packard that didn't arrive on Christmas morning?

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So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.

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