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Twin carbed Duesnebergs
- Joel
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Any info is appreciated. Thanks, Joel
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- landmark
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alsancle wrote: A Pitcairn autogyro. I understand A.K. Miller's was up in one of the barn lofts.
...
Hello,
the Pitcairn Autogyro was as well at a very popular movie from 1934.
Frank Capra's "It happened one night" starring Clark Gable and Claudette Colbert.
You can see the Autogyro landing @ 4.20 min ... re=related
The Autogyro needs a very short runway to start:
In Hildesheim, some 50mls away of my hometown in Germany, the AutoGyro Company produce some modern types of Autogyro aircrafts.
www.auto-gyro.com/en/Calidus/
... re=related
Matt
Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut
Wilhelm Busch
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- alsancle
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- Bob Roller
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Higher compression pistons worked as time went on and mechanics and experimenters worked on the engines and my own exerience with J528 bears this out. The only way to get more energy from gasoline is to compress the
air/gas mixture and when the low octane fuels available in 1929 are factored into a stock engine,if the actual output was anywhere near the claimed 265HP then it proved the soundness of the engineering that brought it about.. I think it was an article in a long ago Automoble Quarterly that said "as delivered to the original buyer,the engine probably did actually deliver about 245HP but might possibly be tuned at higher cost to the claimed 265HP advertised.
The Duesenberg Special was said to have different cams but just how different I certainly don't know but at a guess,I'd say they had longer duration per cycle.If you look at the original cams,they have little dwell time but the engines usually will idle smoothly and in the days of the new "J",smooth idle was always expected from any luxury car. Down draft carburetors helped a lot too.
To Silverghost:
Thanks for the infor on Mr.Pitcairn. The old mechanic,Lou Musgrove spoke highly of him but not of the autogyro or any helicopter (Dammit,wings don't rotate,propellors rotate") It's men like Pitcairn,the uncommon ones that are being discouraged today by a political twit and I will leave it at that.
Thanks again.
Bob Roller
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- landmark
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does someone know the real(istic) HP output of the different "serial" J engine configurations?
I mean for the uncharged (downdraft-/updraft Carb) engine, the charged engine fitted with a single carb and the charged engines fitted with two carbs.
As I read in an article at "Road & Track" (Misc. Ramblings - Duesenberg Model J from May 1953) the real Power output (J-110) was about 208 BHP at 3600 RPM.
In the same article was written that the SJ (single-Carb) engines reach (realistic) 265 BHP.
In some articles at german books it was mentioned that the engines of the two "SSJ" Roadster where "tuned" the same way (compression?, valve-timing?) as the Mormon Meteor with an estimated power output of ca. 400 HP.
I am sure that the uncharged "Specials" with four single (Sidedraft) Carbs mounted and higher Compression (8:1 ?) Pistons would reach easily 265 HP and more.
Had the Duesenberg company used the same camshaft-configuration (valve timing) in every J engines or had they made (timing) changes during the production-time of the J engines?
The valve timing data (for engine J-110) published in article at "Road & Track" differ to the data published at the "Duesenberg owners companion".
Landmark
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Wilhelm Busch
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- silverghost
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The WA. state owner of Harold Pitcairn's old model "J" Muphy clearvision sedan insisted that this auto had two Winfield carbs installed on a dual carb manifold.
He sent the Pitcairn museum a half dozen photos of this model "J" .
Sadly he sent no photos of the engine's carb & intake side.
I sent Chris these email photos.
Perhapps Harold , or some later owner, made this later upgrade.
Dad knew Jim Hoe fairly well & I have several vivid memories of visiting his Westin CT "Sports Car Garage"
The Duenberg model "J" were his "sports cars" of choice for races & hill-climbs .
Jim Hoe was a great guy.
He made a big impression on me .
He was very nice & kind to a little kid like me .
He explained everything about the great model "J" cars he so loved.
He did not talk down to me~
I was only 5 or 6 at this time.
Bob~
Harold Pitcairn was quite a fellow indeed.
He started Pittsburg Plate Glass~
Pittsburg paints~
He sarted the first early US airmail routes.
Built the Pitcairn mailwing biplane ,&
Pitcairn autogyro used for the first US air mail routes.
[A.K. Miller the infamous Sutz hoarder once flew the mailwing & later the autogyro for Mr. Pitcairn as a very young airmail pilot. In fact~~~ A. K. Miller used to land the autogyro on the ROOF of the large 30th street Main Philadelphia Post Office.]
Pitcairn's own personal autogyro the blue "Miss Champion Sparkplug" could often be seen flying in our area & landing on his two mansion's front lawns.
It still exists today in the Pitcairn aviation museum.
Harold also started Eastern Airlines~
Built an airfield that is now the Willow Grove Naval Air Station & reserve airbase.
Harold also built the Bryn Athen Cathedral which is the second largest gothic cathedral in the USA.
It was built using all gothic era building tecniques with imported european stone masons ,& used original gothic formula stained glass windows built in a custom glass shop on his mansion estate grounds.
Harlod Pitcairn , and his father John, had their hand in early trolly & train transportation systems, coal mines, and much much more.
They had many great high-end /high powered autos in their lifetimes.
Many still exist today.
His Model Duesenberg "J" Murphy clearvision is alive & well today also.
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- landmark
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silverghost wrote:
(...)
This model "J"s then current owner in WA offering it for sale advertised it as having twin carbs.
This was not a supercarged car ; but a normally asperated auto.
Was this twin carb set-up on this model "J" a much later modification ?
Or~
Did it come equipped from the factory with those twin carbs ?
I believe it had Winfield carbs ?
Hello,
maybe that owner meant with "having twin carbs" the regular monted Schebler updraft (Two Throat) carb. In a way it is a twin carb, -two seperate carbs in one body with a shared fuel-chamber.
Matt
Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut
Wilhelm Busch
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- Bob Roller
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Multiple carburetion was used on the smaller Duesenberg racing engines but not as a stock item on the "J".
I worked with a man in the mid 50's that knew Mr.Pitcairn and had high regard for him. The man was Lou Musgrove,an old time flyer and mechanic with multi engine ratings on land and sea planes,was a friend to Doug "Wrong Way"Corrigan and showed some Army pilots that a fully loaded bomber could be "bootstrapped"off the deck of a carrier but only one chance per plane and NO go around to try again.
These were Doolittle's pilots that later showed the Japanese that bigger and "better"air raids were on the way in the not too distant future.
Bob Roller
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- RandyEma
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There was some neat 4 carb setups put on various J's in the 40s and 50s too.
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A few years back the Harold Pitcairn Murphy Clearvision model "J" came up for sale.
The car's original home was a mansion compound, now a museum. a few blocks from my Pa. home here.
The Bryn Athen Pa Harold Pitcairn museum tried to acquire this auto to put it on display in this museum.
I tipped them off to it being on the market.
Mr Pitcairn started Pittsburg Plate Glass, Pittsburg Paints, Eastern Airlines, and a host of other ventures.
He also was involved in early airmail routes & built the Pitcairn mailwing biplane and the Pitcairn autogyro.
This model "J"s then current owner in WA offering it for sale advertised it as having twin carbs.
This was not a supercarged car ; but a normally asperated auto.
Was this twin carb set-up on this model "J" a much later modification ?
Or~
Did it come equipped from the factory with those twin carbs ?
I believe it had Winfield carbs ?
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- Chris Summers
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Chris Summers
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Chris Summers wrote:
...The speedster in question is J-364 and has a body of later construction; the frame is AN original but its identity is a matter of question. In the past the body has been presented as from the period but I doubt it and I do not believe it to have been a Murphy as has also been claimed. As I recall this car has a dual-carb blower but a reproduction. Again, any comments are welcomed.
Hello,
J-364 will be offered at Auctions America (RM) auction in Auburn.
www.auctionsamerica.com/events/f ... 11&ID=r101
Matt
Was man besonders gerne tut,
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Wilhelm Busch
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- Bob Roller
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I know of at least one low mileage motor block that sold for about $80,000 not too far from here and Ted McPhail told me he paid $20,000US for a transmission. He also traded a 1928 Auburn boat tail "speedster" for a "J"engine. Good deal or bad,I don't know.
Bob Roller
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- alsancle
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Model J engines go from 65k to 100k depending on condition and completeness. Last transmission I know of sold for 25k.
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- West Peterson
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- Chris Summers
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The car was hammered in 2003 at $429,000; in 2007 at $660,000; and now in 2011 at $506,000. It reportedly sold in 2010 as well for $390,000 but notice confliction with RM's history of the car. Who's telling the truth?
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- West Peterson
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The printed catalog stated that it was fitted with "a Stromberg UUR" carburetor, so I assumed that since they were describing a single carburetor and using no photo from that side (printed version), that meant just one carburetor.
So... is that a reproduction twin-carbureted supercharger? Seems like a pretty-pricy and rare unit to be sitting atop a "bitsa" Duesenberg, eh?
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- landmark
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West Peterson wrote: The auction catalog doesn't show the carburetor side.
Hello,
on catalog-picture No.3 you can see the Supercharger with the two carbs
www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails.cf ... &Currency=
B.t.w. I had the thought when I first saw the price of that replica. But in addition when s.o. "butcher" the "car" he has an original J-engine plus Supercharger and a many good spareparts like clutch, gearbox, stearing, the complete hydraulic brake system and axles, wheels instruments a.s.o... <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) -->
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- Chris Summers
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www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails.cf ... CarID=r149
www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails.cf ... CarID=r101
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- West Peterson
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- Chris Summers
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I compared the photo from online (p. 1) with the 2011 catalog photo and the 2007 Ponder Collection catalog photo. The engine appears identical in all three.
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- West Peterson
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The auction catalog leads one to believe that the twin carbureted supercharger pictured way back on page one of this thread is now a single carbureted supercharger????
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- landmark
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Chris Summers wrote: Hi Matt,
Per my files the car has the original engine J-134 with a renumbered bellhousing and a partially reproduction frame built in the early 1970s. I have seen letters documenting that at least part of the frame was reproduction at that point and that what original pieces were used came from 2286. I do not believe that any part of original frame 2159 (the original of J-134) survived.
The body is not the original Walton Speedster, which survives elsewhere, but was built during the restoration.
I will happily eat my words if any contrary evidence can be presented, but at the moment I believe the car to have a replica frame until someone with further knowledge can tell me otherwise.
Hi,
the car (J-134) is sold @RM auction in St. John's to the price of $ 506000
The other Duesenberg (J-288, Murphy Convertible Berline) at that auction had a hammerprice about $ 704000
Matt
Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut
Wilhelm Busch
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- Chris Summers
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It is a past Best Duesenberg winner at Auburn...in 1958.
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- Chris Summers
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It does greatly resemble the Buehrig drawing and may have been inspired by it, certainly was restored in the inspiration of it.
Last I heard the car was supposedly in VA.
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- landmark
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Chris Summers wrote: .
...The speedster in question is J-364 and has a body of later construction; the frame is AN original but its identity is a matter of question. In the past the body has been presented as from the period but I doubt it and I do not believe it to have been a Murphy as has also been claimed. As I recall this car has a dual-carb blower but a reproduction. Again, any comments are welcomed.
I think that speedster body was inspired (whenever it was built) by a sketch of Gordon Buehrig, which you can find at the J.L. Elbert book on page 35 (picture 4).
The sketches on that page are titled: Above design sketches, 1929-31 of Duesies never built
Taken from the album of Gordon Buehrig, Chief Designer, Duesenberg, Inc., 1929-33
Matt
Was man besonders gerne tut,
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Wilhelm Busch
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- Chris Summers
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The Tourster in question has always been faithfully presented to my knowledge and is with an owner that I imagine knows what it is.
The speedster in question is J-364 and has a body of later construction; the frame is AN original but its identity is a matter of question. In the past the body has been presented as from the period but I doubt it and I do not believe it to have been a Murphy as has also been claimed. As I recall this car has a dual-carb blower but a reproduction. Again, any comments are welcomed.
Chris Summers
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Matt,you're welcome about the warm greeting and by the way,Dein Englisch,Ausgezeichnet mein Freund.
A Duesenberg with no history or Zeitgeschichte before 1970 has to be a composite or an out and out fraud.
Has it been represented as an original car and sold as such? If so,who and when?? I think something like that would be a "fun car" if one had a big budget for fun but with no history earlier that the year my first son was born is absurd. I saw some sort of a boat taile speedster at Auburn in 2003 and have pictures of it. It was yellow and black and I have heard different tales about how it came into being, Any ideas??
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- Chris Summers
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I don't have a problem with any of these cars being referred to as Duesenbergs as long as their history is accurately presented.
Buyer beware. It helps to remember that a Duesenberg - or any old car - is, when you break away the history, still a used car, and should be examined with the same scrutiny you give any used car. Asking to see ACD Club Certification and talking to knowledgable people (of which this Club has many) are a good start.
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Chris Summers wrote: Hi Matt,
Per my files the car has the original engine J-134 with a renumbered bellhousing and a partially reproduction frame built in the early 1970s. I have seen letters documenting that at least part of the frame was reproduction at that point and that what original pieces were used came from 2286. I do not believe that any part of original frame 2159 (the original of J-134) survived.
The body is not the original Walton Speedster, which survives elsewhere, but was built during the restoration.
I will happily eat my words if any contrary evidence can be presented, but at the moment I believe the car to have a replica frame until someone with further knowledge can tell me otherwise.
Hi everybody,
first of all
@Chris: all the best to your father.
@Bob Roller: Thanks for the warm welcome.
The catalog for the RM auction in St. John's is now online. The history description of the J-134 has a lot of if, could be and maybe. My english is not perfect, so what I understand of the description is that it is a J-engine mounted on a reproduction frame of onknown production with the original 2159 car firewall.
Body and Supercharger would be made and mounted in the 70ies.
So in my opinion this is a nice looking replica with some original parts mounted. Or I am wrong with my opinion?
Matt
Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut
Wilhelm Busch
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- Steve Derus
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Wishing your Dad a recovery that is faster than a Duesenberg.
Steve
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Sorry to hear this, but it sounds as if he's doing as well as can be expected. My best wishes to your father.
And a big 10-4 that we should all take better care of ourselves.
Mike
8-100A
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fyreline wrote: Nothing but best wishes for you and your dad, Chris . . . hoping for a speedy and complete recovery for him.
Thanks for all you do for us here. It's therapy for us all.
+1
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Thanks for all you do for us here. It's therapy for us all.
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That said, Duesenbergs help me deal with anxiety, so you'll be seeing me on here off and on still when I'm not at the hospital or taking up his slack for the local newspaper.
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Viele Grusse aus Amerika senden Dir und jetz dem fragen Zwei vergassers mt Kompressor.
Now a bit of news.Chris Summers father had a coronary event that put him in the ICU and 4 bypasses later he SEEMS to be getting along OK according to Chris.
In the 1950's,it was said that 6 dual caburetor superchargers were built in the day when these cars were available as a new vehicle.That left 31 with single carburetor blowers. I saw SJ572 in 1952 and it had the dual carburetors on it then and it was installed in a car that originally carried J240. The dual carburetor arrangement on the Duesenberg Special was an obvious conversion of a single carb unit by using a pipe altered to accept the second carburetor.
Harry VanIderstine told me about the problem of power loss with J572 and after thinking it over for a while,it was my opinion that the two carburetors were pushing too much fuel and strangling or flooding the engine because both discharge pipes were blowing into the place once occupied by a single down draft carburetor. The "Special" had twin manifolds which was a much better intake arrangement,
The Gary Cooper SSJ was an SJ from new.I don't know about the so called "Clark Gable"SSJ. The Brunn bodied SJ528 was also supercharged as a new car. I recall Harry Schulzinger saying he had a blower but decided to go with the rebore/high compression pistons instead. It worked quite well.
Personally,I am against adding superchargers,side pipes and manifolds to any car that did not have them in 1937.
Bob Roller
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Chris Summers wrote: Hi Matt,
Per my files the car has the original engine J-134 with a renumbered bellhousing and a reproduction frame built in the early 1970s. I have seen letters documenting that at least the side members of the frame were reproduction at that point, probably all of it as I have never seen any evidence that original frame 2159 survives.
The body is not the original Walton Speedster, which survives elsewhere, but was built during the restoration.
I will happily eat my words if any contrary evidence can be presented, but at the moment I believe the car to have a replica frame until someone with further knowledge can tell me otherwise.
Hello Chris,
thank you for the information.
Matt
Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut
Wilhelm Busch
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Per my files the car has the original engine J-134 with a renumbered bellhousing and a partially reproduction frame built in the early 1970s. I have seen letters documenting that at least part of the frame was reproduction at that point and that what original pieces were used came from 2286. I do not believe that any part of original frame 2159 (the original of J-134) survived.
The body is not the original Walton Speedster, which survives elsewhere, but was built during the restoration.
I will happily eat my words if any contrary evidence can be presented, but at the moment I believe the car to have a replica frame until someone with further knowledge can tell me otherwise.
Chris Summers
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Chris Summers wrote: The second car is J-134 / replica frame, with a Bob Gassaway-built boattail body, formerly owned by Richard and Linda Kughn.
Hello everybody,
I am new at this forum, so allow me to introduce myself.
My name is Matt, I am german, so please excuse that my english is not perfect.
I live round about 40 mls north of Kirchheide, the birthplace of the Duesenberg-brothers.
I am interested in Duesenberg cars for more than 20 years. I am fascinated by the avant-garde engineering and the wonderful body designs.
My question is; can anyone tell more about the history of the J-134?
It is a very good looking car, but is it a proper historical Duesenberg?
According to J.L. Elbert it was originally delivered as a LeBaron convertible sedan with the frame number 2159. At what time the Gassaway Speedster Body was mounted?
Chris Summers wrote that today a replica frame is mounted. What happened to the original frame? Was the original frame damaged (by accident) and had to be replaced?
The car is now offered by RM Auctions at the St. John's auction. Today there is no (history) discription of the car available at the RM-website, but it is offered with the frame number 2159.
Matt
Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut
Wilhelm Busch
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- Mike Dube
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So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
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So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
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