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Duesenberg Fantasy Bidding #2: The Joe E. Brown Tourster
- West Peterson
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Hey Al, how about if I pick up said handshake on my way to Hershey, and deliver it to you for Chris? I won't keep it. Promise.
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- Chris Summers
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Seriously, though, in future contests I'll make it clear that I'm looking for + commission--which is the final sales price as it appears on the auction company website.
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- West Peterson
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If both Al and I were guessing high bid, then I win with my $1.3 mil bid. If we were guessing bid plus commission, Al wins with his $1.5 mil bid.
Since it was not made clear, I suggest that Al and I split the winnings.
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- alsancle
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If we had played this game with some of the cars at the Ponder Auction I would have completely screwed up. I've never seen replicas and rebodied cars go for so much money.
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- Chris Summers
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A.J. San Clemente wins the hearty digital handshake with a bid of $1.5 million. Congrats!
(The only car that came close to it in the McMullen auction was the Murphy-bodied Cadillac , which sold for just over a million.)
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- Chris Summers
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Chris Summers
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- alsancle
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Originality means, did that engine,chassis,body come from the factory together (or were they modified by the factory in period)? A chassis/engine combo that originally carried a wild (read: cool) body and now carries an exact duplicate of the original body will bring big money. It would bring more money with the original body but the important factor is that 2/3 original pieces are in place and the 3rd piece is identical to what was there originally.
Things like ownership history can add some value (I like to now as much abot the history of my cars as possible) but is not the overwhelming factor if there is consensus on the cars "originality".
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- Chris Summers
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Chris Summers wrote: ....a reputation is not the same as reality.
I was never able to visit Harrah's, but looking over the auction catalogs I'm astounded at what was wrong with a lot of cars that looked pretty. Even the 1934 Packard boattail speedster that General Lyons bought (for the first time) in 1985 for $780,000 was dented!
On the other hand, I think that your two Toursters would be worth about the same amount. There would be a serious Duesenberg collector who would pay the same amount for the original car without stories and another who would pay it for the mostly-rebodied car with a fascinating history. Myself, I fall between the two...I love history and it means a lot in my eyes.
Just a theory. As for the Ponder cars, "red heat" rules sometimes.
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- Greg Riley
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A prime example was the '37 Cord 812. It appeard to be a nicely restored but not "over restored" car. It brought only $154,000, and the auctioneer really had to work at it. The car immediately before it was a rebodied Bugatti T57SC. The bidding was fierce and it was hammered at $836,000. Although the Bugatti was beautifully restored with a stunning interior, quite frankly I thought the coachwork was odd looking. From the rear it looked like two learing eyes with a big nose.
Having a lot of money to spend doesn't necessarily transalte to an eye for quality. There are some wonderful closed Duesenberg's out there that don't move the meter (at least in Duesenberg terms) while some open cars with muddled historys bring big dollars.
I still covet the Judkins Coupe.
Greg Riley
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- West Peterson
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Again, in my opinion, a buyer needs to pay more attention to the cars' real history (including its restoration/restorer) than to who owns/owned it.
Two identical-condition Duesenberg Durham Toursters standing side by side. One without a "big-time collector history" but with a body that had never been cut up or altered, the other that had been owned by a "big time collector" but with a mostly reproduced body. Which one is worth more?
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- Chris Summers
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It should be said, of course, that a reputation is not the same as reality.
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- West Peterson
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I'll bid $1.3 mil for J-444.
Do relatively new ownership names really add value to a vintage car? Harrah, Lutgert, Kughn, McMullin, etc.???? Not in my book! I have nothing against those people, but why would their name increase a car's value (aside from the possible standard of its restoration, which, of course, should be attributed to the resto shop, and not the owner).
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- Chris Summers
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The parts of the Ponder car in themselves have good history--the Walton body, the engine (out of Robert Gill's one-off LeBaron), plus Bill Harrah, Rick Carroll, Raymond Lutgert, and Richard Kughn are nice names to have in a car's provenance.
However, I think that the car looks like an ad for Creamsicles.
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- Greg Riley
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Although the car has a somewhat muddled history it shows well. I spoke to Gene Ponder at length about the car. He said he had always wanted a Duesenberg for his collection and when he saw this car he was quite taken with the color combination. The car also has several art-deco touches and Gene is a big art-deco fan. He told me that his 30 year mechanic went over the car bumper to bumper and it is tour ready.
The car sold for $660,000 including buyers premium. If a fellow wanted an open Duesenberg "on the cheap" this didn't seem a bad deal to me. Especially when one considers some of the world record prices paid that day. For example:
1951 Bugatti Type 101 $990,000
1939 Alfa 2300 Spyder $924,000
1934 Bugatti T55 Recreation $693,000
1953 Aston-Martin DB2 Drophead $847,000
1935 MG Magnette Airline Coupe $398,750
I can't believe an MG brought almost $400K!
Greg
Greg Riley
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- alsancle
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- Mike Dube
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Mike
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- Chris Summers
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I'd prefer to have somebody else win, anyway. If the guy who created the thread won it wouldn't be much fun, would it?
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- fyreline
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But I'd love to be wrong.
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- alsancle
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- Chris Summers
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Derham Tourster J-444, originally owned by movie star and comedian Joe E. Brown, was one of eight originally built and features special trim such as a polished wood floor and a polished bright "speed line" at the top of the body. Howard Hughes later removed the rear half of the body and used it to tow gliders aloft. The car was later restored by Otis Chandler and will be sold June 9th by RM Auctions from the John McMullen Collection.
So, considering the car's history, riches-to-rags-to-riches story, and current fine condition, what do you think it will sell for? Take your best guess; the closest guess to the actual sale price receives a hearty digital handshake.
I'll begin with my bid: $2.5 million.
Chris Summers
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