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Duesenberg Fantasy Bidding #2: The Joe E. Brown Tourster

  • West Peterson
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19 Jun 2007 19:53 #7259 by West Peterson
Oh well. It was worth a try.
Hey Al, how about if I pick up said handshake on my way to Hershey, and deliver it to you for Chris? I won't keep it. Promise.

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  • Chris Summers
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19 Jun 2007 19:37 #7258 by Chris Summers
*bureaucratic voice* Christopher Richard Summers obsolves himself of any responsibility after hearty handshake is delivered to declared winner. Disagreements with stated policy must be handled between the claimant and the winner of the hearty handshake.

Seriously, though, in future contests I'll make it clear that I'm looking for + commission--which is the final sales price as it appears on the auction company website.

Chris Summers
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  • West Peterson
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19 Jun 2007 19:28 #7257 by West Peterson
Final bid was $1.35 mil. Plus commision the total was $1.485 mil.
If both Al and I were guessing high bid, then I win with my $1.3 mil bid. If we were guessing bid plus commission, Al wins with his $1.5 mil bid.
Since it was not made clear, I suggest that Al and I split the winnings. :)

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11 Jun 2007 15:07 #7185 by alsancle
Chris, I'll forward you my address so you can send me my winnings! In a relatively stable market environment like the one we are in now you can usually take some pretty accurate guesses - especially on Duesenbergs.

If we had played this game with some of the cars at the Ponder Auction I would have completely screwed up. I've never seen replicas and rebodied cars go for so much money.

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  • Chris Summers
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10 Jun 2007 16:19 #7180 by Chris Summers
J-444 sold for $1,485,000.

A.J. San Clemente wins the hearty digital handshake with a bid of $1.5 million. Congrats!

(The only car that came close to it in the McMullen auction was the Murphy-bodied Cadillac , which sold for just over a million.)

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  • Chris Summers
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29 May 2007 23:36 #7108 by Chris Summers
Less than two weeks till the auction--place your fantasy bids while you still can! (Why, yes, I DO have nothing better to do than orchestrate things like this--but what's the harm in a little fun?)

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03 May 2007 16:53 #6968 by alsancle
The value of a Duesenberg can be calculated with reasonable accuracy based on: Body Type, originality, Supercharged originally, in that order.

Originality means, did that engine,chassis,body come from the factory together (or were they modified by the factory in period)? A chassis/engine combo that originally carried a wild (read: cool) body and now carries an exact duplicate of the original body will bring big money. It would bring more money with the original body but the important factor is that 2/3 original pieces are in place and the 3rd piece is identical to what was there originally.

Things like ownership history can add some value (I like to now as much abot the history of my cars as possible) but is not the overwhelming factor if there is consensus on the cars "originality".

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  • Chris Summers
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02 May 2007 15:38 #6967 by Chris Summers
Oh, I agree with you on "the provenance isn't everything," West.

Chris Summers wrote: ....a reputation is not the same as reality. :D


I was never able to visit Harrah's, but looking over the auction catalogs I'm astounded at what was wrong with a lot of cars that looked pretty. Even the 1934 Packard boattail speedster that General Lyons bought (for the first time) in 1985 for $780,000 was dented!

On the other hand, I think that your two Toursters would be worth about the same amount. There would be a serious Duesenberg collector who would pay the same amount for the original car without stories and another who would pay it for the mostly-rebodied car with a fascinating history. Myself, I fall between the two...I love history and it means a lot in my eyes.

Just a theory. :D As for the Ponder cars, "red heat" rules sometimes.

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  • Greg Riley
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02 May 2007 03:27 #6964 by Greg Riley
Replied by Greg Riley on topic Another thought on the Ponder Auction
The Ponder auction was quite a relevation. I watched astronmical prices paid for recreations, rebodies, etc largely based on having something from the Ponder collection. At the same time some real jewels didn't command the prices one would expect.
A prime example was the '37 Cord 812. It appeard to be a nicely restored but not "over restored" car. It brought only $154,000, and the auctioneer really had to work at it. The car immediately before it was a rebodied Bugatti T57SC. The bidding was fierce and it was hammered at $836,000. Although the Bugatti was beautifully restored with a stunning interior, quite frankly I thought the coachwork was odd looking. From the rear it looked like two learing eyes with a big nose.
Having a lot of money to spend doesn't necessarily transalte to an eye for quality. There are some wonderful closed Duesenberg's out there that don't move the meter (at least in Duesenberg terms) while some open cars with muddled historys bring big dollars.
I still covet the Judkins Coupe.

Greg Riley

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  • West Peterson
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01 May 2007 20:51 #6957 by West Peterson
That's a leap of faith, as some "big time" collectors have some "fright pigs" underneath that glittery paint. Bill Harrah's shop had at least four levels of restorations, from First-Rate to little more than a quicky paint job, so you can't just go by the name. There are some cars out there that were sold out of First-Rate collections, because they were second-rate cars. But now we have buyers who are paying a premium because a second-rate car used to be in a First-Rate collection??? Buyer beware!
Again, in my opinion, a buyer needs to pay more attention to the cars' real history (including its restoration/restorer) than to who owns/owned it.
Two identical-condition Duesenberg Durham Toursters standing side by side. One without a "big-time collector history" but with a body that had never been cut up or altered, the other that had been owned by a "big time collector" but with a mostly reproduced body. Which one is worth more?

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  • Chris Summers
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01 May 2007 16:35 #6953 by Chris Summers
Because some collectors have a reputation for excellent, quality, show-winning restorations and collecting only "the best," which in some people's eyes adds a lot of value to a car from their collection. I wouldn't buy any car just for its history, but knowing Rick Carroll or Bill Harrah touched it at some point certainly wouldn't make me shy away.

It should be said, of course, that a reputation is not the same as reality. :D

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  • West Peterson
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01 May 2007 14:12 #6945 by West Peterson
I'll agree with Chris. The Ponder Duesenberg is not all that attractive. About all it had going for it was its supercharged engine.
I'll bid $1.3 mil for J-444.
Do relatively new ownership names really add value to a vintage car? Harrah, Lutgert, Kughn, McMullin, etc.???? Not in my book! I have nothing against those people, but why would their name increase a car's value (aside from the possible standard of its restoration, which, of course, should be attributed to the resto shop, and not the owner).

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  • Chris Summers
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28 Apr 2007 03:53 #6926 by Chris Summers
Yes, but did you see that MG? *drools*

The parts of the Ponder car in themselves have good history--the Walton body, the engine (out of Robert Gill's one-off LeBaron), plus Bill Harrah, Rick Carroll, Raymond Lutgert, and Richard Kughn are nice names to have in a car's provenance.

However, I think that the car looks like an ad for Creamsicles.

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  • Greg Riley
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27 Apr 2007 12:02 #6921 by Greg Riley
Replied by Greg Riley on topic Ponder Auction
I attended the auction at the Ponder estate last weekend. Lot of record setting prices were paid. However, this did not extend to J-134.

Although the car has a somewhat muddled history it shows well. I spoke to Gene Ponder at length about the car. He said he had always wanted a Duesenberg for his collection and when he saw this car he was quite taken with the color combination. The car also has several art-deco touches and Gene is a big art-deco fan. He told me that his 30 year mechanic went over the car bumper to bumper and it is tour ready.

The car sold for $660,000 including buyers premium. If a fellow wanted an open Duesenberg "on the cheap" this didn't seem a bad deal to me. Especially when one considers some of the world record prices paid that day. For example:

1951 Bugatti Type 101 $990,000
1939 Alfa 2300 Spyder $924,000
1934 Bugatti T55 Recreation $693,000
1953 Aston-Martin DB2 Drophead $847,000
1935 MG Magnette Airline Coupe $398,750

I can't believe an MG brought almost $400K!
Greg

Greg Riley

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23 Apr 2007 15:37 #6902 by alsancle
The "Elvis Presley" car that Don Willams sold at Hershey last year was similar to a tourster but minus the roll up divider window. It also had an older restoration and was one of the only Duesenbergs equipped with 20 inch wheels which made it look a little funky. This car sold for well under a million. Up until a few years ago it took a very special car to break the 1 million dollar mark, but in the last couple of years there have been some real nice ones that have gone for big money.

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  • Mike Dube
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23 Apr 2007 02:05 #6900 by Mike Dube
For the sake of the contest, I'll say 1.9

Mike
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  • Chris Summers
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22 Apr 2007 15:08 #6899 by Chris Summers
I'm always too optimistic on this sort of thing :-)

I'd prefer to have somebody else win, anyway. If the guy who created the thread won it wouldn't be much fun, would it?

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  • fyreline
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22 Apr 2007 13:26 #6898 by fyreline
I unfortunately agree - I think 2.5 million is a stretch. Not that it wouldn't be worth it, and if I had that kind of money I wouldn't hesitate to spend it on this car. You'll get the "experts" who will make comments like , "Oh, the market's a bit soft right now" - or exactly the opposite - but the truth is that Duesenbergs have a market niche all to themselves, and always have. Of course they are affected somewhat by the overall state of the economy, but people buy Duesenbergs for different reasons than they buy other cars, even other full classics. I would guess this car won't crack the 2 million dollar barrier - say, $1,725,000. That's my guess.

But I'd love to be wrong. :D

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22 Apr 2007 01:02 #6897 by alsancle
Toursters don't bring that much. I would say closer to 1.5.

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  • Chris Summers
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20 Apr 2007 16:33 #6892 by Chris Summers
Since we all seemed to have fun with the Bauer car fantasy bidding, I decided to try it again:

Derham Tourster J-444, originally owned by movie star and comedian Joe E. Brown, was one of eight originally built and features special trim such as a polished wood floor and a polished bright "speed line" at the top of the body. Howard Hughes later removed the rear half of the body and used it to tow gliders aloft. The car was later restored by Otis Chandler and will be sold June 9th by RM Auctions from the John McMullen Collection.

So, considering the car's history, riches-to-rags-to-riches story, and current fine condition, what do you think it will sell for? Take your best guess; the closest guess to the actual sale price receives a hearty digital handshake.

I'll begin with my bid: $2.5 million.

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