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A Cord authenticity question

  • JIM.OBRIEN
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23 Jun 2018 14:32 #34823 by JIM.OBRIEN
Replied by JIM.OBRIEN on topic A Cord authenticity question
yes

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  • STEVEN.KUIPER
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23 Jun 2018 14:13 #34822 by STEVEN.KUIPER
Replied by STEVEN.KUIPER on topic A Cord authenticity question
when cars are certified at the acd meet....do they note the frame numbers (if visible)?
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23 Jun 2018 11:50 #34821 by vintageauto
Replied by vintageauto on topic A Cord authenticity question
Jim,
Thanks for all of your input on this post. In all honesty, I'm not sure how to go any further. The frame number question, and your explanation of the inconsistencies at the factory, kind of lead to a dead end regarding the frame.

Without the benefit of past owners comments regarding the VIN plate and the "A" vs. an "H" all we can do is speculate why that happened. This issue was an item in Mr. Malks book, but the fact remains...This is a Phaeton and not a Westchester Sedan. We had a suggestion just to re-stamp another VIN plate, but I'm not sure if that is even legal? The engine number is also consistent with Mr. Malks book. So, my thinking is to leave everything as it is. The issues with this car have been documented thru recent auction descriptions and outlined in Malk's book.

I have the car advertised for the owner. It is a very nice older restoration and the car presents itself very well, above average in my opinion. The undercarriage needs detailing for show purposes, but is more than satisfactory for a high-end driver. The asking price, in my opinion, is a bit high and I plan to discuss that with the owner, but it is his car. So, I hope more comments and opinions are shared on this thread, and thanks again for your comments, they are appreciated.

Vintageauto

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  • JIM.OBRIEN
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22 Jun 2018 23:58 #34817 by JIM.OBRIEN
Replied by JIM.OBRIEN on topic A Cord authenticity question
Newbie and Vintage,

The number on the frame is what we call the unit number. This number should be 1000 less then the serial number. So far this car the unit (frame) number is 1716. Therefore the serial number should be 2716. Since they basically started the numbering over for the 812's you can't tell from the numbers if the car is a 810 or 812, you have to dig deeper. Based on the serial number the car that was attached to that frame would have been one of the very last Cord built in 1936 since the numbers didn't go that high in 1937.

To answer other questions here, the unit number should always be 1000 less then the serial number except on the 1937 812 cars between 1001 and 1525. These were left over 1936 models that were renumbered to 1937 models. The frame numbers were never changed on these cars. To my knowledge every Cord that came out of the factory had the unit number stamped on the frame. There were some left over frames that did not have unit numbers stamped on them and since 1937 have found their way onto Cords.

From an authenticity stand point I would be more concerned with the serial number having an "A" in it. "A" means the car should be a Westchester and it is a phaeton. So did the plate get stamped wrong? Did the wrong plate get put on this car? Or is there some other exploitation? only some very serious research on the history of the car may tell.
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  • 1748 S
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22 Jun 2018 16:09 #34816 by 1748 S
Replied by 1748 S on topic A Cord authenticity question
My feelings are this frame number differences means very little to most but.. There is the purest that "wants a numbers matching car"..... Even if it never left the factory with matching numbers. As already posted. Its thought that some cars never had numbers on the frames. Josh Malks said it best. No two cars were alike even from the factory. For an additional fee you could get ANY color you wanted to pay for. Just take a look at the hard top in the ACD museum. It was a convertable but.. the buyer who was president of Champion Spark plug wanted a hard top. So one was grafted on. He wanted Auburn head lights and got them. The exhaust comong out of the hood had special posts made I think from a Buick. It had an Auburn hood ornament too. So a factory car "could" be what you were willing to pay for. I suppose this car in question should be certified by the club sometime in the future.Its a nice looking car and it appears to be all Cord...
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  • STEVEN.KUIPER
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22 Jun 2018 13:51 #34815 by STEVEN.KUIPER
Replied by STEVEN.KUIPER on topic A Cord authenticity question
i'm not convinced this is a "non-matching number" frame. as not all cars had matching numbers from the factory. additionally, through time many many parts have been swapped around between remaining cars.
as the car is for sale....if it is all cord & title is clean then, does this frame # thing have any real affect on value?
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22 Jun 2018 10:14 #34811 by vintageauto
Replied by vintageauto on topic A Cord authenticity question
Thanks Jim, I can see that the numbers 1716 do not match the VIN, but do you have any idea what they do mean?...Example...in another thread regarding frame numbers, a member posted the numbers 1237. Randy Ema responded that the numbers indicated an 851? My question to you or Randy...Is there a list of frame numbers available from any source that would provide additional info on a specific car? Does the 1716 indicate an 812 Body (in this case a Phaeton)? There are many conflicting factory stories regarding frames...bodies the intermingling of parts during construction of these cars that are confusing at best. Thanks to anyone for comments or theories.

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  • NewbieCordFan
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22 Jun 2018 03:53 #34808 by NewbieCordFan
Replied by NewbieCordFan on topic A Cord authenticity question
Thanks, Jim. Does the 1716 mean anything in particular? That is, does it tell you anything about the origins of the frame, the car it originally came with, and the like?

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  • JIM.OBRIEN
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22 Jun 2018 01:51 #34807 by JIM.OBRIEN
Replied by JIM.OBRIEN on topic A Cord authenticity question
The frame stamping would be 1716 as they didn't use letters on the frame stamping. This doesn't match the serial number.

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  • Terry Cockerell
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21 Jun 2018 23:37 - 21 Jun 2018 23:38 #34806 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic A Cord authenticity question
The numbers are only lightly stamped because the numerals are quite large and would have needed to be hit with a sledge hammer to make a deeper impression. From memory the numerals are 3/4" high

T cockerell
Last edit: 21 Jun 2018 23:38 by Terry Cockerell. Reason: Additional information added

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  • vintageauto
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21 Jun 2018 18:16 - 21 Jun 2018 18:16 #34802 by vintageauto
Replied by vintageauto on topic A Cord authenticity question
I am helping the owner with the sale of the 1937 Cord being discussed here. I've added a photo of the frame number of the car in question for everyone's comments. The number is light, but I think that its either - L716 or 1716 ? Look closely and you can just make out the numbers. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
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Last edit: 21 Jun 2018 18:16 by vintageauto.

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  • 1748 S
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21 Jun 2018 16:10 #34798 by 1748 S
Replied by 1748 S on topic A Cord authenticity question
My car with a serial number 1748S was built in early 1937. Some members here suggested my car might have been a re-numbered 36 car. My research has found my car is an actual 1937 build. My frame numbers match the plate numbers but.. They sure are VERY lightly stamped in the frame. Not knowing they igsisted in this "secret location" an owner probably would never see them. A flash light really does help high lighting the numbers. My car was built in Feb. of 1937 I recall. Its well documented in Cord Complete my Josh Malks.

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  • STEVEN.KUIPER
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21 Jun 2018 13:11 - 21 Jun 2018 13:12 #34796 by STEVEN.KUIPER
Replied by STEVEN.KUIPER on topic A Cord authenticity question
if i remember correctly.....after the re-numbering of unsold 1936 cars as 1937 car the frame #'s got all jumbled up. latter convertibles with reinforced frames had no numbers at all (per malks book).
when they say lightly stamped "lightly" is the operative word.
when i retrieved my "original" (blow torched) frame from a field, i had to strip all paint off to see even a shape of a number. they by doing rubbings and shining various light across the sufface i did make it out.
however, frame numbers did not match construction details of the body (early 1937).
so, it was either mismatched frame or long ago replacement frame.
as it was really damaged. i got a replacement frame.
Last edit: 21 Jun 2018 13:12 by STEVEN.KUIPER. Reason: word change to clarify

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  • mikespeed35
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21 Jun 2018 04:50 #34795 by mikespeed35
Replied by mikespeed35 on topic A Cord authenticity question
Let the buyer beware.
CORDiallyMike

Mike Huffman

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  • NewbieCordFan
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21 Jun 2018 01:33 #34793 by NewbieCordFan
Replied by NewbieCordFan on topic A Cord authenticity question
Thanks very much for the replies. I have passed this on to the seller. Much appreciated.

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  • 1748 S
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20 Jun 2018 22:25 #34791 by 1748 S
Replied by 1748 S on topic A Cord authenticity question
I agree with Randy on the frame number being something you need to find. If you look on the frame between the lower round head rivets on the passenger side behind the front wheel it will be VERY lightly stamped in the frame. The numbers are about 3/4 inch tall. I also agree with the serial number plate being a reproduction. No Cord came from the factory with Phillips head screws even though they were available shortly after production of the 36 Cord was started. Company used what they had the most of and buying new parts was not on the "must have" list. Not sure what generator you have on this engine but the voltage regulator is not in the correct location. It has to be located just to the drivers side of the generator on the firewall.
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  • RandyEma
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20 Jun 2018 17:01 #34789 by RandyEma
Replied by RandyEma on topic A Cord authenticity question
Hello. Serial plate is a reproduction and the serial number is possibly not at all a match to this car. You need to find the frame number. R
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20 Jun 2018 12:35 #34786 by NewbieCordFan
Replied by NewbieCordFan on topic A Cord authenticity question
Thanks for the reply, Pete. I have posted two pictures from yesterday below. You can also see pictures of the car here at the 2011 RM auction advertisement here: ww.w.rmautorestoration.com/hf11/hershey/...d-812-phaeton/826735

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but is there a particular part of the firewall that would be helpful to see?



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  • pete kelly
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20 Jun 2018 12:05 #34785 by pete kelly
Replied by pete kelly on topic A Cord authenticity question
Can you post pics of the car and firewall?

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  • NewbieCordFan
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20 Jun 2018 04:06 #34784 by NewbieCordFan
A Cord authenticity question was created by NewbieCordFan
Today I looked at a Cord that is for sale, an 812 unsupercharged phaeton. I'm hoping I can get some help with an authenticity question, as this is my first experience looking closely at a Cord. The top plate lists the car as having serial 32010A, with engine FB2003. The Central Manufacturing plate says C91 417. I confirmed that the engine is FB2003 (or at least that is the serial number on the engine), but my understanding is that the serial number 32010A would correspond to a Westchester Sedan. The seller tells me that he is sure that this was simply an error in the top plate, where they put A instead of H. He also points to the appendix in one of Josh Malks' books, which seems to list FB2003 as put in a phaeton. The authenticity issue was enough to puzzle the auctioneers at RM, who wrote the following about the car ww.w.rmautorestoration.com/hf11/hershey/...2-phaeton/826735when it was up for sale in a 2011 auction : "The car’s chassis number would seem to indicate a supercharged Westchester Sedan. Additionally, Cord historian Josh Malks’ books on the subject indicated that engine “FB 2003” is in an unspecified, un-supercharged Phaeton."

I'd be very interested to benefit from the insights of the Cord cognoscenti on the forum about what I should make of this. Is the "A" on the top plate an issue, or is that just an error? Thanks very much for any help you may be able to give me.

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