engine temperature reductions

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23 Sep 2003 17:03 #808 by Auburn/Cord Parts
Auburn/Cord Parts replied the topic: Cooling Problems
I would still flow test the radiator - especially if the gunk wasn't flushed out of the block. Cord temperatures are all over the place, usually at idle around 180 and if you have a 172 thermostat that's about right. Without thermostats or restrictors to the manifold you're not fixing anything. You must run antifreeze to protect electrolysis. Don't put your faith in those miracle coolants either! Flush the block and reclean and test the radiator for flow. Sid Ayers had a good article about flow in the ACD newsletter a couple of years ago. You need to also check the timing and carb. If the engine is lean it will run hot and 10 radiators won't cool it.

Stan

Auburn/Cord Parts, Inc. P.O. Box 547 1400 N. "A" St. Wellington, KS 67152 (620) 326-7751 This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

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24 Sep 2003 02:06 #811 by balinwire
balinwire replied the topic: cool now
Thanks KS,
The restriction was in the output hose fitting to the pump off the left head. I was getting ready to remove the head when I removed the hose that I had installed when there was no coolant in it. It now was full so when I removed the hose water poured out of the pump side but poured very slowly out of the head.

I removed the old 45-degree ? water pipe fitting that had an unusual fitting sealer, kind of a jute thread, unlike the Teflon we use today. When removed I was able to use a small rod, the fence retainer, to probe the head and the restriction flowed out immediately. I refilled and it will not go over 160-180 top's, no boiling after 30 min and a short drive. Now I can go on to the minor front end items that need attention. I will be calling with an order for bushings etc.

This radiator has been the biggest challenge so far, mechanical breakage is easy to spot but overheating is miserable. I was afraid to use coolant as I thought it might add to the corrosion problem but I will use it now that you say it needs the protection additive. I feel better using coolant for the freeze protection. I once had a Chevy 6 block develop a 12" crack after the water expanded after a hard freeze.

Well i can now say it is possible to have a cool running Cord, thank's

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07 Oct 2003 01:22 #858 by balinwire
balinwire replied the topic: discombobulated- 10/6/2003
I am not sure I have this cooling issue behind me yet. Remember I took the curved pipe fitting from the bottom of the head to the water pump and cleaned it out? I think this must be a shunt as I think this may have been added later. This must be the threaded hole that accepts the thermostat sender bulb? I do not have another car to look at but it seem reasonable. The gauge is right behind the firewall. Is this hose needed for the engine? Will it run cool without this connection? The other head would have the heater connection at this head access and that side seems to be running cool with out the heater or host to pump. I still think I have restriction in the front of the left head.

The Cord manual for heater installation says to use a street elbow at the water pump and go thru the firewall and back to the right head. If this right side does not need the shunt why would the left need it unless it was clogged at the block to pump with the 1 ? in left casting to pump? Would the hearer hose now complete the coolant pattern.

We have schematics of the shifter but I have never seen a coolant schematic. Is there a coolant flow chart online? I have so many questions about flow and without seeing the bare block I just cant understand the flow pattern. Is the right shunt needed if there is no heater and then reversed to the other head? Should the engine be able to run cool with both head access passages closed and with the heater access at the water pump blocked off? I just do not have another engine to look at. I need to see a close-up of the engine hoses and carburetor fittings.

I am not sure how the vacuum shifter vent connects. The vacuum hose to the manifold is easy but where does the vent go? Air cleaner? It just lays next to the chrome vacuum line exposed to the atmosphere. The end to the air cleaner may have been cut off. Just don?t know without seeing another.

Do the heads need any external hoses to the pump? from balin'

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08 Oct 2003 00:22 #861 by
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Hey balinwire,

It sounds like you're having you're having lots of fun on this Cord. I'll try to answer some of your questions.

The connections at the bottom of the were for - on the left side for the sensing bulb for the water temperature gage. On the right side for the line to the heater. If the car didn't have a heater the connection on the right head had a pipe plug in it. I have no idea what you are talking about with a connection from the bottom of the left head to the water pump, I've never seen anything like this...it sounds like somebody tried jury rigging it for some reason.

I don't ever remember seeing a cooling flow schematic for the Cord. I'll try to give you the water flow off the top of my head and someone can correct me when I get it wrong.

The water flow into the top of the radiator throught the two inlets. Then down and out the one outlet on the bottom(there has been debate over the years that the single outlet causes flow problems in the radiator). From the bottom of the radiator up to the water pump. Make sure you have a spring in this lower radiator hose to prevent the water pump from collasping the hose which will cause overheating. The water pump has two outlets on the bottom of the pump that go into the front of the block - one on either side. These feed distribution tubes inside the engine block that distribute the water up near the valve area. These are brass tubes (I think) that have a tendency to corrode and the distribution holes block up (another area to check). The water then flows from the block, through numerous holes into the head. As the water flows through the head to the top the head increases in thickness to allow for better cooling in the upper area of the head where the temperature is higher. At the top of the head is the thermostat and then the water flows back to the top of the radiator (when the thermostats are open). At the thermostat housing the water also splits off and some goes through the intake manifold and back to the water pump. This is to prewarm the gas/air mixture before it enters the cylinders.

Now to add some controversy, some people have plugged the lines to the intake manifold to keep the water out of this area. Their reasoning has been three fold. First - if the intake manifold leaks (and there are two(?) pipe plugs on the bottom) the water going directly into the crankcase. Second - the cars are run in the summer so there is no reason to warm the gas/air mixture. Three - this maintains a lower temperature in the intake manifold which in turn means less heat transfer to the carb and less of a chance of vapor locking.

I'm not saying I recommend this, but I haven't heard of any problems eliminating this fluid flow either. Anyone else have any comments on this?

As for the vent connection off the shift solinoids, on a standard car it run up to the top of the engine along with the vacuum line, then turn up at the right rear corner of the carb and goes into a hole in the air cleaner( the end of the pipe is cut off at an angle). This may have a very slight vacuum on it but it ensures a clean air supply for the shifting works.

I hope I've answered some of your questions.

GOOD LUCK

Jim

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08 Oct 2003 14:52 #864 by Auburn/Cord Parts
Auburn/Cord Parts replied the topic: RE: Water Flow
Balinwire-

The Cord cylinder head - lower fitttings are for the temp gauge bulb on the left and heater connection on the right. These shouldn't be connected to anything else. If there is any sort of hose or whatever to the water pump and no heater in the loop - disregard it. You could have blockage in the head or at the holes that connect the head and block together. Sounds like you might end up having to tear it down and clean the passages out.

Water flow: water is pumped into the 2 elbows on the front of the block. Behind the elbows inside the engine block is a water distribution tube for both the right and left sides. These tubes spray cooled water through 1/4" holes towards the exhaust valve guides. Water is then forced through the thermostats and partially under the carb area of the intake manifold and then on to the top tank of the radiator. When the thermostats are closed, the water just circulates between the water pump - block and intake manifold for carburator heat so that the carb area doesn't ice up. When the thermostats open, the water circulates through the radiator.

There isn't any vacuum supply hose on the Cord from the intake manifold to the solenoid - it's solid tubing. The vent on the front of the solenoid parallels the vacuum line but at the manifold it just extends up beside the carb into the air cleaner opposite the vent tube from the oil filler. You need to look at a correct, authentic Cord and try to get some notes or photos.

Be watchful of any factory literature on the Cord engine and transmission. Most of it is incorrect!

Stan

Auburn/Cord Parts, Inc. P.O. Box 547 1400 N. "A" St. Wellington, KS 67152 (620) 326-7751 This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

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08 Oct 2003 23:41 #866 by balinwire
balinwire replied the topic: thanks Jim and Stan
To understand what is going on with this cooling system after that explanation, I have to put myself in the boots of the mechanic that would be asked to correct these problems many years ago.
First of all the owner would complain of overheating. Well first take the thermostats out of course. That only aggravates the condition. Possible flush and add sealer that was more like plaster than our modern chemicals.
The owner is ready for a recore but that is expensive and there are no honeycomb replacements. We retain the old one and the one still there after 65+ years. So the dealership would know that a heater could dissipate some heat and maybe by shunting the water from the rear of the head at the thermostat bulb housing directly to the pump may divert enough coolant to possibly route the coolant around an obstruction. This was done and removed by me, including the very nice antique brass fittings that will be used later in the heater installation. Hopefully this would help but did not and the car sat for many decades until it was just recently recored. So really I am trying to repair something that has stumped many others. I think I am almost successful at the repair.
I was not aware that the coolant would circulate in the intake. The modern V8’s I am used to seeing do not do this. It would be good for preheating in Indiana in the winter. I am thinking that the 172 degree thermostats should really be 140 for warmer climates. We need all the cooling we can get here in the southern states.
I have the cooling system back as to stock configuration as per the responses. I talked to the radiator shop who built my radiator and it is in perfect condition internally. He mentioned that some old timer’s would remove thermostats in an effort to cool the unpressured systems of old. He also stated an interesting fact and that was something I never considered. That was that without the restriction of a thermostat the coolant would flow so fast through the radiator it wouldn’t have enough time to cool. It sounded reasonable to me.
She stills runs a little to warm for me. I removed the front engine coolant housing from the block to pump, very carefully as the tabs could be easily broken off, and there seems like there is very good flow when flushed through the block.
I am working very carefully as I do not want to overheat or damage this engine in any way as this is a good car and it made this far without my help!
I am having the most fun in my life with #1752, thanks for the info!, balin'

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