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engine temperature reductions

  • Dave Henderson
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15 Dec 2003 15:02 #1117 by Dave Henderson
Replied by Dave Henderson on topic engine temperature reductions
P S. Make that "vent holes FROM the head" in the thermostats, not TO the heads!
One other of Greenlee's suggestions:
"To stop leaks around head bolts, put an expanded 10-mm spark
plug gasket under each bolt head below the washer".
Dave

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  • Dave Henderson
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15 Dec 2003 14:49 #1116 by Dave Henderson
Replied by Dave Henderson on topic engine temperature reductions
In keeping with the Josh malks comment on the lack of vent holes (to the heads) in Cord thermostats, I looked at three different makes and they are all without any such holes. Only one 'stat bore the maker's id, Bishop and Babcock Mfg. Co. (Another said HRD 54). I had never noticed before, but all three appear to have been individually calibrated at the factory by the rotating of a threaded shaft affixed to the bellows, and then soldering it to lock the position.
Overheating was a topic of discussion when Lyman Greenlee wrote words of wisdom in his Cord booklet over 50 years ago. Even then, with many fewer years of dust and rust, here is what he had to say:
"Old blocks with years of service will be limed and full of rust and
corrosion. Much of this can be scraped out when the motor is
disassembled. It is very important to thoroughly clean all water
passages, but care should be used with acids to avoid damage
to car and owner. It will pay to have the block cleaned on any
complete rebuilding job. Failure to do so will probably result in
a job that overheats badly and hot spots will develop due to poor
circulation. These are very hard on the motor and may result in
permanent damage".
Dave

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  • Josh Malks
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14 Dec 2003 18:48 #1114 by Josh Malks
Replied by Josh Malks on topic Overflow
Your suggestions and observations are very welcome, M.L.

Yet we are constantly reminded that the engineers of the 1930s --- without benefit of computers --- almost always got the basics right. This was definitely true of Auburn and Lycoming. And, in this case, radiator manufacturer Jamestown. The overflow pipe on the Cord radiator top tank is indeed very close to the highest point in the coolant system.

Josh B. Malks
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  • leslie9958
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14 Dec 2003 18:33 #1113 by leslie9958
Replied by leslie9958 on topic Thermostats and the air problem.
The problem is that you have a complete system to worry about not just the hole in the thermostat. I would make a suggestion that Cord owners study very carefully the whole air problem in the V-8 engine and see just where the highest portion of the coolant is supposed to be. After ascertaining just where this area is then put an overflow bottle/pipes/hoses in the appropriate place. It may well be that the radiator cap is not the highest place. To function correctly the overflow must be in the highest place to work correctly after the HOT engine is shut for the day! Remember the engine doesn?t cool for about 3 or 4 hours in an ambient temperature of 68 degrees. This is especially true it the car is in a closed garage with no airflow around the car. This is the time that the system works to purge the air from the system. My guess is that it takes several times for this to happen and even then it is a continuing day-to-day process.

Yours, M.L. Anderson :)

1920's
The antifreeze/coolant business, as we know it today, began with the marketing of "Prestone" brand ethylene glycol antifreeze in 1927. It was pure ethylene glycol in cans, with published charts showing protection afforded by specific quantities. It would not boil away or burn, and was comparatively odorless, offering a distinct advantage to some of the substances used previously.

1930's
In 1930, Prestone developed and marketed the first inhibitor to further protect the cooling system and retard rust formation.

1960's
In the early 60s, all three U.S. car companies - Ford Motor Company, General Motors and Chrysler - began installing a 50% water and 50% ethylene glycol antifreeze solution in their new cars, which led to the
emergence of antifreeze/coolant as a year-round functional fluid - just as important as engine oil or automatic transmission fluid.

1970's
In 1972, the product was reformulated to incorporate the unique, patented silicone-silicate copolymer which greatly enhanced its inhibitor effectiveness, particularly for aluminum cooling system components.

1980's
In 1981, Prestone® antifreeze/coolant was again reformulated to provide even better corrosion protection for the increasing number of aluminum cooling system components used in cars.

1990's
In 1994, Prestone introduced many new products in the antifreeze and car care categories including Prestone® LowTox? antifreeze/coolant, Prestone® Extended Life 5/150 antifreeze/coolant and RV antifreeze. Prestone LowTox antifreeze/coolant provides an added margin of safety against accidental ingestion by pets and wildlife and is endorsed by the ASPCA. Extended Life 5/150 antifreeze/coolant provides protection for 5 years or 150,000 miles and is licensed by NASCAR®*. RV antifreeze protects potable water systems from freeze-ups. Prestone antifreeze/coolant became the official antifreeze of NASCAR®*.

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  • Josh Malks
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14 Dec 2003 17:24 #1112 by Josh Malks
Replied by Josh Malks on topic No bleed hole on Cord thermostats
While I don't have one in my hand at the moment, I don't recall ever seeing a bleed hole or notch in the Cord thermostat. (Certainly no wriggler.)

That's probably because the thermostat used has a huge bleed orifice: the outlet to the intake manifold. When the coolant is cold and the thermostat is closed, the "sleeve valve" on top of the thermostat is open to the intake manifold, so water doesn't get trapped at the thermostat.

Josh B. Malks
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  • leslie9958
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07 Dec 2003 17:57 #1094 by leslie9958
Replied by leslie9958 on topic Air bleed hole in thermostats.
Well Lycoming-8 it seems as tho you have solved the complete problem in one fell swoop! I may even know why my Toyota Solara V-6 does the same thing when they overfill the overflow tank at Penskes. The next time I take it in for a check of one kind or another I will find out. Thank you. M.L. Anderson :D

Edit: After doing all of the above I went to the local friendly Kragen auto parts store and looked at a bunch of thermostats for various cars and the one for V-6 Toyotas has a very small sharp "V" on periphery and not a very big one at that. I suspect that it is just not large enough to do the job it is intended to do. Some of them have holes about 3/32?, .0937? or 2.38mm to do the job, also some of them have a small ?wriggler? in them for some purpose. M.L. A.

Edit # 2 Dec.-08-2003, After doing the above I cleaned off the top of the plastic bottle with a worn toothbrush and dried it off with a white Kleenex. Which showed signs of the Red Coolant in a very small amount around the top of the cap. The level of the coolant is to the Toyota owner?s manual. But still the coolant seems to be overflowing the cap. I intend too keep this up for several days to see if it continues in this fashion. But I believe that the hole is not of sufficient size to prevent the act of regurgitation of the coolant in a Burp as described by Lycomimg-8. It may not be much but it is annoying.

Edit # 3 Dec. 10-2003 Have been doing the Kleenex bit several times a day and same results. It is wet around the top of the outlet wher the cap goes on but a very small amount barely enought to see on the tissue.

Edit # 4 Dec. 12 One more thing about the cap on the bottle! Make very certain that you put it on until it pops if that is the way to lock it on. What happens if this is not done on the Camry is that it pops off and sprays coolant all over the top of the bottle and makes you feel foolish. <!-- s:oops: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed" /><!-- s:oops: -->

Message from Stant; ML, a thermostat's bleed notch, jiggle pin, or check valve all have essentially the same function. That is, to allow trapped air in the cooling system to exit after it is refilled after a flush or thermostat replacement. Different OEMs use different designs to accomplish this. Most thermostats for domestic cars use a bleed notch. This is a tiny notch cut out between the thermostat valve and flange. Most European cars use a check valve, which is a ball in a cage on the flange which modulates opening and closing a hole. Most Asian built cars use a jiggle pin (your wriggler). This is a ball with a stem that goes through the flange which modulates as air is pushed out.
Without this air bleed system, trapped air would stay in the engine lowering the efficiency of cooling system.

Edit # 5. After all this, the problem seems to be the cap and its tightness to the bottle which has to be TIGHT. The reason for this is very apparent after all the trouble and that is that the motion of the fluid under braking and accelration. Over on the right hand side of the bottle is a VENT built into the bottle to slow the passege overflow under braking whic is shaped like a "Z" to help prevent various types of overflow . The reason for it being to the side is one ordinarily makes turns at less "Gees" than under braking.
End of s :D :D tory ,I hope!
M.L. Anderson

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  • Lycoming-8
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07 Dec 2003 05:02 #1092 by Lycoming-8
Replied by Lycoming-8 on topic engine temperature reductions
Daily driver is an '83 MB 300D turbo sed, and when refilling the cooling system they are very prone to getting air bubbles in the top end of the cooling system. Some of these cars have a capscrew threaded into the t-stat housing, but not all of them seem to have that feature. The currently available t-stats for these only 20 year old cars don't appear to come with little bleed holes in them. So the generally accepted practice is to drill one, if the capscrew feature is missing from the housing. If one of these measures is not taken on the 300D's, they will run hot until they finally self burp all of the air bubbles. I suspect that he bleed hole on the Cord t-stats is there for much the same reason.

'31 Auburn Coupe

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  • leslie9958
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06 Dec 2003 18:02 #1091 by leslie9958
Replied by leslie9958 on topic Bleed hole
:D I?ve been thinking about the thermostat situation and just why the ?bleed hole? was put there in the first place and did the original Cord thermostats have a bleed hole in them? Since the old cars had all sorts of trouble with engine heat one must consider the things the manufactures have done since the 1930s. First is the design of better thermostats and the overflow bottles to prevent oxygen from getting into the coolant systems, plus the pressure caps. We couldn?t have the systems we have at the present without all of these additions.
All of this adds up to a total system we have in 2004 cars.

Back to the thermostats and the bleed hole. This hole also prevents air from getting under the thermostats and isolating the bellows from the hot coolant so I still believe it is somewhat necessary to allow the hot coolant passing thru the bellows. This would be especially true on a system without the overflow bottle and pressure cap.
Some where on the net is a series of articles by a man who really knows what he is talking about and I am going to see if I can find it again as I don?t know when, where and how I came to find it before. Will just have to search.

M.L. Anderson :D
www.evanscooling.com/main31.htm
Edit; You might try this one but it is not the one I was thinking of. Note the statement about trapped air. M.L. A.

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  • Josh Malks
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04 Dec 2003 20:50 #1085 by Josh Malks
Replied by Josh Malks on topic engine temperature reductions
For M.L.: the Cord FB engine used a separate thermostat for each head too. The bellows element was located on the heat (hot) side, so no bleed hole was necessary. You can see this in the engine cross-section at
www.automaven.com/Technical/Engine/EngineX1.pdf

Josh B. Malks
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  • Josh Malks
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04 Dec 2003 20:38 #1084 by Josh Malks
Replied by Josh Malks on topic engine temperature reductions
A few Cord owners have pressurized the cooling system. Those that I know of have limited this to 4 pounds, since the Cord radiator tanks were not intended to retain today's pressures of 15 pounds and more.

Jim Lawrence, winner of 2002's Wat Adams Award (for Cord driving) uses a Volvo overflow tank with a 4 pound cap on it, that both pressurizes the system and adds overflow protection. Your cooling system has to be airtight to do this. Not worth it unless you DRIVE. (Do it!)

Josh B. Malks
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  • leslie9958
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04 Dec 2003 19:46 #1082 by leslie9958
Replied by leslie9958 on topic Oxygen in the coolant
I was just reading an old Audels book and trying to see how the old cars fought the oxygen problem and they mentioned the air leaks on the intake side of the coolant pump. In new cars with pressure caps this is not a problem but in old cars without pressure caps it could be a very large problem. Old cars with ambient pressure caps could not cope with this. Just another problem for the Cords. M.L. Anderson

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  • leslie9958
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02 Dec 2003 23:37 #1065 by leslie9958
Replied by leslie9958 on topic Overheating and vapor lock.
I know that the popular name of VAPOR LOCK is used over and over everywhere one goes but there is no real thing as vapor lock, it is a great misnomer in Automobile Lore. I first found out about this about 1948 when I purchased my first Motor Manual the one with the dark blue cover that falls off after about 50 years of heavy use. If one is very lucky and still has one that hasn?t been ruined by fuel injection information one can read about what so called vapor lock really is and follow with intelligent and appropriate action. Vapor can?t lock anything if one analyzes it!

Carburetor heat is there for a purpose and that is to prevent ?The Latent Heat of Evaporation? from freezing up the carburetor in the winter in particular. That is why aircraft have very careful instructions to pilots about this phenomenon. Icing up of carburetors in aircraft can KILL pilot?s crew, and passengers in aircraft. Fortunately cars can pull over to the side of the road when and if this happens. A lot of old time cars had the carburetor heat on the dash where one could pull or push it off and on as needed. Carburetor heat is there for a purpose. Remember Lycoming is and was an aircraft engine manufacturer. I don?t know how long they have been in business but it?s a long time and they have probably seen about every thing that can happen to a piston engine.

The V-8 is actually two engines sitting at 90-degree angle and the two sides are separated and the flow in one side is not the same as the other. Note that the Ford V-8 of the 1932 to 19?? Flathead had two thermostats built in it at the factory. Vic Edelbrock found this out back in the forties when racing the V-8 Sixty in Midgets racecars.
He substituted flat washers with appropriate sized holes in either side of the two cylinders heads or at least that is the story told about him. I would examine carefully the thermostats and see if they have small bypass holes in them as this is to allow a small amount of coolant to bypass the thermostat and allow the hot coolant to get up to the thermostat and to allow it to open at the proper time and temperature. The best place to find out about this is to talk to an old time Ford flathead man. Also remember that a Cord engine is still a complicated flathead engine.

Also remember that a lot of new engines such a the Toyota and others are Aluminum blocks and cylinders heads see what kind of coolant they use and read the instructions on the side of the bottle of antifreeze coolant you intend to use it might tell you not to use it on and alloy block. The coolant that Toyota uses are red I believe and I don?t put any in myself.
Also has anyone tried to use a pressure cap at low pressures and overflow bottle see if the down tube is putting out exhaust gas as this implies a cracked block or head, gasket or something. The new cars don?t use those things for nothing as this would allow oxygen into the coolant and slowly corrode and eat the hell out of the aluminum and mess up the warranty and cost the manufacturer a lot of money. Well enough of this pontification and back to the engine firing order and stuff. Yours, M.L. Anderson

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  • Dave Henderson
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26 Nov 2003 18:00 #1021 by Dave Henderson
Replied by Dave Henderson on topic engine temperature reductions
Tom,
It wasn't I who was contemplating blocking off the intake manifold, did you send a message to Bailinwire, he spoke of doing it.
Anyhow, thanks for the info, I never noticed the 1/4" hole, will go up in the attic and look at a manifold. I seem to recall seeing a plug or two in the center, but they would be over the block cavity, not water
Dave

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  • Tom Georgeson
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26 Nov 2003 03:37 #1020 by Tom Georgeson
Replied by Tom Georgeson on topic engine temperature reductions
When blocking off the water to the intake manifold you need to block off the outlet to the water pump. If it is not blocked off hot water will filter back into the manifold because of a small drilled hole, (1/4" or so) in the bottom of the manifold that is open to the water in the block. If you are blocking of the water to the intake manifold this also needs to be plugged. Drill it out and put a plug in it.

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  • balinwire
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24 Nov 2003 20:31 #1016 by balinwire
Replied by balinwire on topic fighting gravity
All is not lost yet, Dave, <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> they say a Cord sedan will yield 7-8 pounds of lead on scrapping!
<!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->

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  • Dave Henderson
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24 Nov 2003 16:17 #1015 by Dave Henderson
Replied by Dave Henderson on topic engine temperature reductions
I had the advantage of the block being out of the car and a steam cleaner to blast scale out. You're fighting gravity, plus there are more nooks and crannies than in the much advertised brand of english muffins. Taking an hour or so to rig up a pair of screens for the upper ends of the hoses would likely pay off and reveal how things are. You could just use common window screen formed in a cone to give maximum area. After about 5 miles (or boilover if it occurs first) open up and see what you've caught.
Might be appropriate to back flusd the rad, or remove it and flush it upside down. All that loose stuff has been goin somewhere.
Keep on persevering!

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  • balinwire
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24 Nov 2003 00:18 #1011 by balinwire
Replied by balinwire on topic staying the course
You know the cars a problem but I have to listen to my daughters wrestling coach, they sent them home with this flier and I have always remembered these words,


MENTAL TOUGHNESS
Nobody ever said it would be easy, so don&#8217;t expect it to be
No one is immune from everyday problems.

Sometimes you have to perform at your best
when you&#8217;re feeling your worst.
Block the hurt, the pain, the sickness out of
your head for the short time you must perform.
Shape up, get it together because excuses don&#8217;t count.
Nobody cares if you are hurt or sick; you either
do the job or you don&#8217;t.

There are times when you might rather be
elsewhere, but face up to the challenge at hand.
No matter what has happened, you must win the mental battle.
You must force yourself to remain confident,
enthusiastic, and positive. You must force yourself to
work harder even when you are sick, hurt, sad, or troubled.
That is mental toughness!

Life is easy when the going is good.

Mental toughness comes into play when the going
gets bad. Never let your opponent know your weakness,
because then he can take advantage of it. The
fighter automatically goes for the cut eye, the bloody nose.
Mental toughness is also the ability to keep after a goal,
to look a year or two ahead and keep going full
throttle after that goal, even in the face of adversity.

One of the oldest and most common locker room signs is this:
&#8220;When the going gets tough, the tough get going!&#8221;
Believe it!!!

this saying could apply to the old car hobby also :rolleyes:

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  • balinwire
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23 Nov 2003 18:00 #1010 by balinwire
Replied by balinwire on topic intake recirculation
This is a copy of the flow chart I got in an earlier reply from from Jim,

The water flow into the top of the radiator throught the two inlets. Then down and out the one outlet on the bottom(there has been debate over the years that the single outlet causes flow problems in the radiator). From the bottom of the radiator up to the water pump. Make sure you have a spring in this lower radiator hose to prevent the water pump from collasping the hose which will cause overheating. The water pump has two outlets on the bottom of the pump that go into the front of the block - one on either side. These feed distribution tubes inside the engine block that distribute the water up near the valve area. These are brass tubes (I think) that have a tendency to corrode and the distribution holes block up (another area to check). The water then flows from the block, through numerous holes into the head. As the water flows through the head to the top the head increases in thickness to allow for better cooling in the upper area of the head where the temperature is higher. At the top of the head is the thermostat and then the water flows back to the top of the radiator (when the thermostats are open). At the thermostat housing the water also splits off and some goes through the intake manifold and back to the water pump. This is to prewarm the gas/air mixture before it enters the cylinders.

Now to add some controversy, some people have plugged the lines to the intake manifold to keep the water out of this area. Their reasoning has been three fold. First - if the intake manifold leaks (and there are two(?) pipe plugs on the bottom) the water going directly into the crankcase. Second - the cars are run in the summer so there is no reason to warm the gas/air mixture. Three - this maintains a lower temperature in the intake manifold which in turn means less heat transfer to the carb and less of a chance of vapor locking.

I'm not saying I recommend this, but I haven't heard of any problems eliminating this fluid flow either. Anyone else have any comments on this?

----From this chart it seems to recirculate from the thermostat housings into the intake manifold and the flow would travel out of the intake manifold front and back into the input side of the water pump.
That would mean a large volume of coolant would recirculate without being cooled. I have two different thermostats and they are slightly different in configuration, different manufactures. I am lucky to have any as they were missing when I started.
When hot, they open, they should separate the flow between the head and intake of the radiator at the thermostat housing with a positive seal to keep the coolant from mixing, I guess they built in a little redundancy at that point.
Where the heater output is cast into the pump housing the housing also seems to recirculate hot fluid. The wet intake would be a good idea in cold climates and possibly help with carburetor bowl percolation and vapor lock in warm climates.
It may have worked if it had flowed back thru the radiator for cooling but I don?t want to second-guess Lycoming design department.
The block has a lot less sediment than when I started and other than removing the drive and boiling the block I will have to hope the sediment will pass thru the block drains when flushed.
The screen idea in the top hoses is a good idea but I did not know of this. The sediment returned to the radiator and I had to remove it-replace and flush all the debris out and now it flows well. The recore has larger passages than the original honeycomb design.
There must not have been any rubber seal in the thermostat housing. I wish these thermostats fit better and were more readily available.
I still do not have the heads replaced as yet. I am now looking for a car trailer. The mini meet is in 6 months and I do not think the grand old lady will be ready for the journey.

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  • Dave Henderson
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23 Nov 2003 03:24 #1004 by Dave Henderson
Replied by Dave Henderson on topic engine temperature reductions
Couple of thoughts....could it be that particles of block scale recontaminate the radiator each time you retest to see if overheating occurs?
Several brands of thermostats that are almost the same do have slight differences in the length of the cylindrical protrusion and the shape of the shoulder on it. I looked at three makes, each a bit different. Possibly an o ring could help you attain a better seal, but as a disclaimer, no one ever suggested that to me.
The intake manifold needs heated water in order to prevent throttle plate freeze-up and stalling. I don't have an open waterpump handy, but I believe the flow from the front outlet pipe (yours does have this, doesn't it?) of the manifold recirculates with water in the water pump coming from the radiator and goes back into the heads. Now, assuming that the water got cooled down some while in the manifold after leaving the heads I'd surmise that this this recirculation wouldn't much effect temperature. Just maybe this area is not where the problem is.

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  • balinwire
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22 Nov 2003 04:01 #1002 by balinwire
Replied by balinwire on topic Continuing education
Nonsense, that is the great thing about sharing your many years of experience in these cars. Heck you got to come to a complete stop before you can get in gear! That's exactly what I am doing now, fishing out the scale. That scale is clogging the heads also. Its like the block is slowly melting away!
The inlet tubes on this block seem to be ok. This is the correct engine that came with this car so this block is going to have to stay.
I was looking at the thermostat housings with their split outlets. The thermostat has a ? in. brass neck that supplies the intake manifold has a loose fit. Is there some kind of a rubber seal between the aluminum housing and the brass thermostat?
The flow pattern would allow an unmetered amount of coolant into the manifold where it divides and would not allow full flow back to the radiator.
If it still heats to a boil after reassembly I will entertain the thought of deleting the thermostats and using wood dowels with a small hole to meter the flow to the intake manifold and run it with out thermostats if there is no success with them.
That is an interesting fact the Cord can run without a fan or a water pump, thermo-siphoning is a good reason to keep the flow unrestricted.
The engine would create heat and the warm coolant would rise flowing into the top of the radiator core where it would be cooled by the air flowing thru the radiator. It would then sink as its specific gravity increases and then return to the lower block to be reheated, keeping the siphoning process going.
Just think of how few cars go 30-40 years before restarting! :) <!-- s:o --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_surprised.gif" alt=":o" title="Surprised" /><!-- s:o --> <!-- s:o --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_surprised.gif" alt=":o" title="Surprised" /><!-- s:o -->

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  • Dave Henderson
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17 Nov 2003 03:09 #992 by Dave Henderson
Replied by Dave Henderson on topic engine temperature reductions
Guess I have just been lucky, not having been plagued with overheating problems, and it's a wonder. My Cord was my only means of transportation (when it wasn't down for repairs, that is) in the early '50's. The engine was removed for overhaul in '52. The bare block was steam cleaned and I fished out the scale in it as best I could. The water distribution tubes were falling apart so the pieces were pulled out. I was running out of time as school was about to start, so I put it back together without the tubes. The engine also had no thermostats. I drove over 5000 miles at various speeds and in all temps without a heating problem! Now, that was then.... and now, after a 3 1/2 decade "rest" it is running again, although haven't driven it a lot. During the Festival parade last year it did overheat, but that was because I had put screens in the upper hoses to catch the inevitable chunks of crud in the block and prevent them from clogging the radiator. (That was its very first run since the '60's, the car had been stored with the cooling drained all the years). Since cleaning the debris off the screens it is its old self again (I hope!) and not overheating. Still no tubes or thermostats. What's the point of all this? I dunno. Dave

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  • Ric Simpson
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12 Nov 2003 22:23 #975 by Ric Simpson
Replied by Ric Simpson on topic Cord cooling
Hi! I have been driving a Cord fairly regularly, since 1947. Overheating usually reared its ugly head on hot days with a vapour lock. The addition of an autopulse fuel pump pretty well made that history. The engine did run hot!
When I started driving my second Cord sedan in 1960, I learned that cleaning out the block of about a gallon can of sand through the open sides (frozen out) made the car run much cooler! I remember attending Auburn in 196? and announcing, "I have solved the overheating problem! " I was greeted with remarks like, "What overheating problem?" "My Cord doesn't overheat!".
In 1983 I installed my rebuilt S/C engine. I have driven it for the last twenty years and the car runs about 180-190 on hot days.
I have had on the car since the '60s the gadget designed by Al Goodman, that runs the water pump 25% faster, uses a modern thin belt, that allows one to change a fan belt on a S/C car in under 15 minutes!
On two occasions I had a belt break (wear out?) . The first time it was in my original sedan (1958). I drove the car home = 100 miles without a running fan/pump. I was nervous and prepared to stop, but the car ran at about 200 all the way home. The second time I was on my way to Auburn in the S/C phaeton, and the belt let go on the Buffalo side of Cleveland. I continued on to Auburn (200 mi) and for the delight of many bought a new belt at the NAPA store, and demonstrated the installation in under 15 minutes.
I think the interesting part is that the Cord will run thermo-syphon if the rad is cleaned out. (I had it rodded out in 1961!)
Just to brag a little, I believe I have driven a Cord about 350,000 miles in my time so far. The phaeton is resting a bit more since I dropped down to a lesser car. (I now have 4 Roll-Royces) . Ric.

Ric Simpson,
2001 Niagara Parkway,
Fort Erie, Ontario,
Canada. L2A 5M4

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  • Russell Colman
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12 Nov 2003 02:47 #969 by Russell Colman
Replied by Russell Colman on topic engine temperature reductions
I'm obviously either very brave or very foolish.

I created matching holes in the head when I had my FB motor out last year. I did this for two reasons. One was to improve the cooling water flow around (what I think) are hottest parts of the head. The second was that these previously dead-flow areas were obviously sites for head corrosion, based on what I saw when I removed the heads. I figured having water flow through these holes would reduce the tendency to corrode the aluminium.

Since doing this mod the car (37 Std Cord Phaeton) has never run above 195 deg F, even on hot Australian summer days.

I should note that at the time I reworked the motor I also had the radiator core cleaned out. No doubt this also contributes to having a 'cool' motor.

I'm not recommending people do this head mod, just noting that I did it without any grief resulting (so far!).

Cheers

Russell

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10 Nov 2003 19:22 #967 by PushnFords
Replied by PushnFords on topic Re: cooling ports

balinwire wrote: Yes, I am going to install the heads without change.
Did Ab Jenkins open these for his record runs? Twenty-four hours at full loads. Tremendous cooling capacity would have been needed.


Actually, he probably didn't have to worry about the cooling system. Many racers even remove their engine fans because they are useless at high speed and can actually block air flow - not to mention rob horsepower. At the speeds he was going there should have been plenty of airflow going through the radiator to cool the car. I drove a car with a disabled cooling fan for several days once - the only times I had trouble was when I dropped below 40-50 mph.

Derek

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  • Auburn/Cord Parts
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10 Nov 2003 19:12 #965 by Auburn/Cord Parts
Replied by Auburn/Cord Parts on topic Re: cooling ports
The Fahlman patent drawings are for the 1932-34 Ford Flathead V8 engines. Patent applications often take years to be granted. The 3 bolt flanged area was for Fords small circulating pump that aided their thermosyphon cooling system. If you count bolt holes, you find 21 which is what Ford had, Cord has 24. Permold was a vendor alright but Bohnalite was the foundry that cast the bulk of Cord production heads for Lycoming. The main reason for aluminum heads being used was to counteract the octane ping that high compression (6:1) was causing. The aluminum masked this sound, leaded fuel was just becoming common but higher priced when Cords were new!

Stan


balinwire wrote: Yes, I am going to install the heads without change.

How much would 147$ engine be in today?s dollars? Also the percentage of the 3,000+ original price tag? I would figure the engine would be 1/3 of the original cost of the car.

I was looking at the 1935 Fahlman patent drawings and it appears that the inlet holes for the FA were round.

The FB had the shoulder on the cam for the centrifugal blower in anticipation of the 1937 model supercharger.

Could they have left the inlet holes and head gasket fluid openings oblong in anticipation of the blower to handle the increased heat load?

Did Ab Jenkins open these for his record runs? Twenty-four hours at full loads. Tremendous cooling capacity would have been needed.


Auburn/Cord Parts, Inc. P.O. Box 547 1400 N. "A" St. Wellington, KS 67152 (620) 326-7751 This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

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09 Nov 2003 18:48 #963 by balinwire
Replied by balinwire on topic cooling ports
Yes, I am going to install the heads without change.

How much would 147$ engine be in today?s dollars? Also the percentage of the 3,000+ original price tag? I would figure the engine would be 1/3 of the original cost of the car.

I was looking at the 1935 Fahlman patent drawings and it appears that the inlet holes for the FA were round.

The FB had the shoulder on the cam for the centrifugal blower in anticipation of the 1937 model supercharger.

Could they have left the inlet holes and head gasket fluid openings oblong in anticipation of the blower to handle the increased heat load?

Did Ab Jenkins open these for his record runs? Twenty-four hours at full loads. Tremendous cooling capacity would have been needed.

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  • Auburn/Cord Parts
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31 Oct 2003 21:09 #947 by Auburn/Cord Parts
Replied by Auburn/Cord Parts on topic RE: Head passages
The holes in the block that don't match the heads go back to the FA series rear wheel drive of 1933-34. Lycoming expiramented and tested this "F" series V8 for some time. They had enough money invested that when they finally put the FB into production, they used whatever they could from previous attempts. Incidentially, Lycoming never made any real profit on this engine, which was their last automotive engine built. They only built slightly over 3000 of the "F" series engines and this wasn't enough to pay them back. I think that Auburn charged out these Cord standard engines at $147.00 including 50% for overhead. My advise is don't mess with the holes.

Stan

Auburn/Cord Parts, Inc. P.O. Box 547 1400 N. "A" St. Wellington, KS 67152 (620) 326-7751 This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

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30 Oct 2003 01:50 #946 by cbs
Replied by cbs on topic engine temperature reductions
:rolleyes:

Think we'd all be hoping you'll be the first to open the mystery passages and cause these engines to never overheat! Actual H20 temp. at top of Jamestown core is about 15-20 deg. cooler than indicated by dash guage. There's no way this car could run in a modern traffic jam, but car is best enjoyed by avoiding doing so.

Maybe someone out there with a scrap block can try it and let us know what opening it up could mean?

cs

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  • balinwire
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22 Oct 2003 22:35 #936 by balinwire
Replied by balinwire on topic head passages
I am ready to reinstall heads and I noticed the outside right and left 1/4 in. passages on the engine block and gasket are oval.

The head has one small hole where it meets the oval passage. Should this be drilled out in a matching oval profile or is it small to allow the other passages get flow?

The block also has two passages that are not drilled between the center lower piston area. If relieved these restrictions could there possibly be more flow. Would it just mess up flow around pistons by opening these head passages.


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18 Oct 2003 21:21 #916 by balinwire
Replied by balinwire on topic update
Restarted engine and went thirty minutes until overheating. Let cool and pulled heads. Plenty of debris in all passages. Rodded out the cast engine block best as possible with rinsing and wet vacuum.

Only problem is that several head bolts hit steering column on loosening , there was not much clearance.

Heads in machine shop getting cleaned. I am grinding off the grade markings on head bolts. I will put it together and it should be good in the next few weeks.

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  • Brad Waken
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11 Oct 2003 02:10 #879 by Brad Waken
Replied by Brad Waken on topic engine temperature reductions
Make sure the heads are clear. The aluminum heads can become completely blocked in a short amount of time. I had to spend several hours with the heads off a car and a bent welding rod. The white gunk is residue from the electrolysis from the different metals in the engine. Josh is correct that it will not flush.
b

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  • Josh Malks
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09 Oct 2003 05:16 #870 by Josh Malks
Replied by Josh Malks on topic engine temperature reductions
Stan and Jim have correctly explained the coolant flow in a Cord, so there's no need to put my oar in.

Considering the conditions you describe, a flow test of your radiator would definitely be in order. If you have an 810 with the original Jamestown core those passages are very narrow and clog easily even in a well-maintained car. Don't trust visual evaluations.

And two more things, balin':

1. Boiling will not clean out a Cord core --- only rodding will. A Cord core CAN be rodded out. Takes a very thin (shim-type) rod and an experienced old pro. But having had this done several times over 50 years I assure you it can be done.

2. The story about water flowing "too fast" thru the core is an urban legend. (You even hear about people mutilating their water pump vanes to slow down the flow.) Ask any hydraulic engineer --- the faster the water goes through the core the more heat it exchanges. This is elementary thermodynamics, and your local radiator guy's opinion doesn't change it.

End of pontificating for today.

Josh B. Malks
810 2087A
ACD Club Life Member
ACD Newsletter editor
Past president
www.automaven.com

Check out CORD COMPLETE at www.cordcomplete.com

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  • balinwire
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08 Oct 2003 23:41 #866 by balinwire
Replied by balinwire on topic thanks Jim and Stan
To understand what is going on with this cooling system after that explanation, I have to put myself in the boots of the mechanic that would be asked to correct these problems many years ago.
First of all the owner would complain of overheating. Well first take the thermostats out of course. That only aggravates the condition. Possible flush and add sealer that was more like plaster than our modern chemicals.
The owner is ready for a recore but that is expensive and there are no honeycomb replacements. We retain the old one and the one still there after 65+ years. So the dealership would know that a heater could dissipate some heat and maybe by shunting the water from the rear of the head at the thermostat bulb housing directly to the pump may divert enough coolant to possibly route the coolant around an obstruction. This was done and removed by me, including the very nice antique brass fittings that will be used later in the heater installation. Hopefully this would help but did not and the car sat for many decades until it was just recently recored. So really I am trying to repair something that has stumped many others. I think I am almost successful at the repair.
I was not aware that the coolant would circulate in the intake. The modern V8&#8217;s I am used to seeing do not do this. It would be good for preheating in Indiana in the winter. I am thinking that the 172 degree thermostats should really be 140 for warmer climates. We need all the cooling we can get here in the southern states.
I have the cooling system back as to stock configuration as per the responses. I talked to the radiator shop who built my radiator and it is in perfect condition internally. He mentioned that some old timer&#8217;s would remove thermostats in an effort to cool the unpressured systems of old. He also stated an interesting fact and that was something I never considered. That was that without the restriction of a thermostat the coolant would flow so fast through the radiator it wouldn&#8217;t have enough time to cool. It sounded reasonable to me.
She stills runs a little to warm for me. I removed the front engine coolant housing from the block to pump, very carefully as the tabs could be easily broken off, and there seems like there is very good flow when flushed through the block.
I am working very carefully as I do not want to overheat or damage this engine in any way as this is a good car and it made this far without my help!
I am having the most fun in my life with #1752, thanks for the info!, balin'

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  • Auburn/Cord Parts
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08 Oct 2003 14:52 #864 by Auburn/Cord Parts
Replied by Auburn/Cord Parts on topic RE: Water Flow
Balinwire-

The Cord cylinder head - lower fitttings are for the temp gauge bulb on the left and heater connection on the right. These shouldn't be connected to anything else. If there is any sort of hose or whatever to the water pump and no heater in the loop - disregard it. You could have blockage in the head or at the holes that connect the head and block together. Sounds like you might end up having to tear it down and clean the passages out.

Water flow: water is pumped into the 2 elbows on the front of the block. Behind the elbows inside the engine block is a water distribution tube for both the right and left sides. These tubes spray cooled water through 1/4" holes towards the exhaust valve guides. Water is then forced through the thermostats and partially under the carb area of the intake manifold and then on to the top tank of the radiator. When the thermostats are closed, the water just circulates between the water pump - block and intake manifold for carburator heat so that the carb area doesn't ice up. When the thermostats open, the water circulates through the radiator.

There isn't any vacuum supply hose on the Cord from the intake manifold to the solenoid - it's solid tubing. The vent on the front of the solenoid parallels the vacuum line but at the manifold it just extends up beside the carb into the air cleaner opposite the vent tube from the oil filler. You need to look at a correct, authentic Cord and try to get some notes or photos.

Be watchful of any factory literature on the Cord engine and transmission. Most of it is incorrect!

Stan

Auburn/Cord Parts, Inc. P.O. Box 547 1400 N. "A" St. Wellington, KS 67152 (620) 326-7751 This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

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08 Oct 2003 00:22 #861 by
Replied by on topic engine temperature reductions
Hey balinwire,

It sounds like you're having you're having lots of fun on this Cord. I'll try to answer some of your questions.

The connections at the bottom of the were for - on the left side for the sensing bulb for the water temperature gage. On the right side for the line to the heater. If the car didn't have a heater the connection on the right head had a pipe plug in it. I have no idea what you are talking about with a connection from the bottom of the left head to the water pump, I've never seen anything like this...it sounds like somebody tried jury rigging it for some reason.

I don't ever remember seeing a cooling flow schematic for the Cord. I'll try to give you the water flow off the top of my head and someone can correct me when I get it wrong.

The water flow into the top of the radiator throught the two inlets. Then down and out the one outlet on the bottom(there has been debate over the years that the single outlet causes flow problems in the radiator). From the bottom of the radiator up to the water pump. Make sure you have a spring in this lower radiator hose to prevent the water pump from collasping the hose which will cause overheating. The water pump has two outlets on the bottom of the pump that go into the front of the block - one on either side. These feed distribution tubes inside the engine block that distribute the water up near the valve area. These are brass tubes (I think) that have a tendency to corrode and the distribution holes block up (another area to check). The water then flows from the block, through numerous holes into the head. As the water flows through the head to the top the head increases in thickness to allow for better cooling in the upper area of the head where the temperature is higher. At the top of the head is the thermostat and then the water flows back to the top of the radiator (when the thermostats are open). At the thermostat housing the water also splits off and some goes through the intake manifold and back to the water pump. This is to prewarm the gas/air mixture before it enters the cylinders.

Now to add some controversy, some people have plugged the lines to the intake manifold to keep the water out of this area. Their reasoning has been three fold. First - if the intake manifold leaks (and there are two(?) pipe plugs on the bottom) the water going directly into the crankcase. Second - the cars are run in the summer so there is no reason to warm the gas/air mixture. Three - this maintains a lower temperature in the intake manifold which in turn means less heat transfer to the carb and less of a chance of vapor locking.

I'm not saying I recommend this, but I haven't heard of any problems eliminating this fluid flow either. Anyone else have any comments on this?

As for the vent connection off the shift solinoids, on a standard car it run up to the top of the engine along with the vacuum line, then turn up at the right rear corner of the carb and goes into a hole in the air cleaner( the end of the pipe is cut off at an angle). This may have a very slight vacuum on it but it ensures a clean air supply for the shifting works.

I hope I've answered some of your questions.

GOOD LUCK

Jim

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  • balinwire
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07 Oct 2003 01:22 #858 by balinwire
Replied by balinwire on topic discombobulated- 10/6/2003
I am not sure I have this cooling issue behind me yet. Remember I took the curved pipe fitting from the bottom of the head to the water pump and cleaned it out? I think this must be a shunt as I think this may have been added later. This must be the threaded hole that accepts the thermostat sender bulb? I do not have another car to look at but it seem reasonable. The gauge is right behind the firewall. Is this hose needed for the engine? Will it run cool without this connection? The other head would have the heater connection at this head access and that side seems to be running cool with out the heater or host to pump. I still think I have restriction in the front of the left head.

The Cord manual for heater installation says to use a street elbow at the water pump and go thru the firewall and back to the right head. If this right side does not need the shunt why would the left need it unless it was clogged at the block to pump with the 1 ? in left casting to pump? Would the hearer hose now complete the coolant pattern.

We have schematics of the shifter but I have never seen a coolant schematic. Is there a coolant flow chart online? I have so many questions about flow and without seeing the bare block I just cant understand the flow pattern. Is the right shunt needed if there is no heater and then reversed to the other head? Should the engine be able to run cool with both head access passages closed and with the heater access at the water pump blocked off? I just do not have another engine to look at. I need to see a close-up of the engine hoses and carburetor fittings.

I am not sure how the vacuum shifter vent connects. The vacuum hose to the manifold is easy but where does the vent go? Air cleaner? It just lays next to the chrome vacuum line exposed to the atmosphere. The end to the air cleaner may have been cut off. Just don?t know without seeing another.

Do the heads need any external hoses to the pump? from balin'

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  • balinwire
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24 Sep 2003 02:06 #811 by balinwire
Replied by balinwire on topic cool now
Thanks KS,
The restriction was in the output hose fitting to the pump off the left head. I was getting ready to remove the head when I removed the hose that I had installed when there was no coolant in it. It now was full so when I removed the hose water poured out of the pump side but poured very slowly out of the head.

I removed the old 45-degree ? water pipe fitting that had an unusual fitting sealer, kind of a jute thread, unlike the Teflon we use today. When removed I was able to use a small rod, the fence retainer, to probe the head and the restriction flowed out immediately. I refilled and it will not go over 160-180 top's, no boiling after 30 min and a short drive. Now I can go on to the minor front end items that need attention. I will be calling with an order for bushings etc.

This radiator has been the biggest challenge so far, mechanical breakage is easy to spot but overheating is miserable. I was afraid to use coolant as I thought it might add to the corrosion problem but I will use it now that you say it needs the protection additive. I feel better using coolant for the freeze protection. I once had a Chevy 6 block develop a 12" crack after the water expanded after a hard freeze.

Well i can now say it is possible to have a cool running Cord, thank's

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  • Auburn/Cord Parts
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23 Sep 2003 17:03 #808 by Auburn/Cord Parts
Replied by Auburn/Cord Parts on topic Cooling Problems
I would still flow test the radiator - especially if the gunk wasn't flushed out of the block. Cord temperatures are all over the place, usually at idle around 180 and if you have a 172 thermostat that's about right. Without thermostats or restrictors to the manifold you're not fixing anything. You must run antifreeze to protect electrolysis. Don't put your faith in those miracle coolants either! Flush the block and reclean and test the radiator for flow. Sid Ayers had a good article about flow in the ACD newsletter a couple of years ago. You need to also check the timing and carb. If the engine is lean it will run hot and 10 radiators won't cool it.

Stan

Auburn/Cord Parts, Inc. P.O. Box 547 1400 N. "A" St. Wellington, KS 67152 (620) 326-7751 This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

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21 Sep 2003 12:49 #797 by balinwire
Replied by balinwire on topic Arteriosclerosis
Thank's Tom, I agree there must be crud in the block and I am going to add some block flush and remove hoses but I may have to remove the heads.

In an effort to lower engine temp I was reading the Cord factory service bulletin July 8, 1936 and in #3 there is a mention of the bypass.

There is no diagram of the flow pattern but it seems the thermostat reduces flow to the radiator when closed as usual but if it is removed the flow goes thru the pump even when hot. This is corrected by a ?round piece of metal? with a 1/16 in hole drilled in the top.

My question is, what is this piece of metal supposed to look like? Is it a flat disk? Is it a dowel? I could see how this could meter flow.

I would like to delete the thermostats, they do open correctly at 160-80 but there is very slow flow in the heads and block due to someone?s misintentioned efforts to add leak sealer and the residue may be clogging the block passages somewhat slowing flow and causing overheating.

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20 Sep 2003 01:29 #792 by Tom_Parkinson
Replied by Tom_Parkinson on topic engine temperature reductions
Balin--
I had similar experiences with my 40 LaSalle---it always overheated: high spped, low speed, cool day, hot day, in town, on toll road... I found that a previous owner had "repaired" a radiator leak with generous doses of Stop-Leak which literally packed the water banks around the cylinders with what approximated concrete. I chipped all that crud out and the old LaSalle runs cools as a cuke. Mayhap your Cord is similarly endowed. You'll have to take off a head to check for this.

Also from the experience file, I once was too lazy to install the radiator shroud around the fan in a 52 Willys Jeep. The thing boiled over constantly--until I put the shroud back in. Then it was fine. Perhaps you need to have a shroud made for your car; I am considering making one for mine. Just a thought...

----Tom

With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.

Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International

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  • balinwire
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18 Sep 2003 16:06 #786 by balinwire
Replied by balinwire on topic found problem
I removed left bank thermostat housing and found it clooged to intake manifold with some kind of substance. I cleaned and found more in the block that I am tring to flush out. Would it run cooler without the thermostats or is there some kind of dual circut flow? It should be fine now.

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18 Sep 2003 00:42 #783 by balinwire
Replied by balinwire on topic hotter than a pepper sprout
Not having a way to measure the coolant temperature I borrowed the meat thermometer from the kitchen drawer, <they won?t need it till turkey day> and the temperature of the coolant at the radiator filler started at 160. It moved to 180 after a few minutes. A few minutes later it was at 200 and boiling vigorously. I then shut it down to cool, I recored the radiator, checked the thermostats, very little vacuum leakage, good original carburetor, no leaks, and I am just stumped at how hot it runs. Could it be an accumulation of sediment in the block. Would that cause boiling? What is done to prevent boiling. It is timed perfectly and runs wonderful. It just boils after 10 minutes of running at an idle with the drive unit in first gear. Should a new radiator allow an FB to run at 160-180 degree range, is this possible? It is also difficult to start when warm. There is good flow in the radiator and the pump is fine.



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05 Sep 2003 17:07 #751 by Auburn/Cord Parts
Replied by Auburn/Cord Parts on topic Re: Thermostat Needed
Balinwire-

This sensor bulb has to be reattatched under laboratory-like conditions. Usually, the bulb and entire line is replaced to the dash unit. This is a service we offer including replacing the colored fluid in the dash gauge and calibration.

Stan

Auburn/Cord Parts, Inc. P.O. Box 547 1400 N. "A" St. Wellington, KS 67152 (620) 326-7751 This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

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05 Sep 2003 00:17 #740 by balinwire
engine temperature reductions was created by balinwire
Can anyone help me with ideas about the mercury thermostat bulb in the head?

It?s really unnerving wondering if things are overheating under the hood.

My sender bulb is missing at the cylinder head but the remaining lead to the indicator gauge is still intact and wound up in a coil behind the gauge.

I would like to get a bulb to indicator complete replacement, is this available anywhere?

Can a bulb be resoldered to the old line?

How are these usually repaired?

Is an electric gauge the only answer? I would really like to make a clean original type replacement.

Yours very truly, balin?

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