engine temperature reductions

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06 Dec 2003 18:02 #1091 by leslie9958
leslie9958 replied the topic: Bleed hole
:DI?ve been thinking about the thermostat situation and just why the ?bleed hole? was put there in the first place and did the original Cord thermostats have a bleed hole in them? Since the old cars had all sorts of trouble with engine heat one must consider the things the manufactures have done since the 1930s. First is the design of better thermostats and the overflow bottles to prevent oxygen from getting into the coolant systems, plus the pressure caps. We couldn?t have the systems we have at the present without all of these additions.
All of this adds up to a total system we have in 2004 cars.

Back to the thermostats and the bleed hole. This hole also prevents air from getting under the thermostats and isolating the bellows from the hot coolant so I still believe it is somewhat necessary to allow the hot coolant passing thru the bellows. This would be especially true on a system without the overflow bottle and pressure cap.
Some where on the net is a series of articles by a man who really knows what he is talking about and I am going to see if I can find it again as I don?t know when, where and how I came to find it before. Will just have to search.

M.L. Anderson :D
http://www.evanscooling.com/main31.htm
Edit; You might try this one but it is not the one I was thinking of. Note the statement about trapped air. M.L. A.

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07 Dec 2003 05:02 #1092 by Lycoming-8
Lycoming-8 replied the topic:
Daily driver is an '83 MB 300D turbo sed, and when refilling the cooling system they are very prone to getting air bubbles in the top end of the cooling system. Some of these cars have a capscrew threaded into the t-stat housing, but not all of them seem to have that feature. The currently available t-stats for these only 20 year old cars don't appear to come with little bleed holes in them. So the generally accepted practice is to drill one, if the capscrew feature is missing from the housing. If one of these measures is not taken on the 300D's, they will run hot until they finally self burp all of the air bubbles. I suspect that he bleed hole on the Cord t-stats is there for much the same reason.

'31 Auburn Coupe

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07 Dec 2003 17:57 #1094 by leslie9958
leslie9958 replied the topic: Air bleed hole in thermostats.
Well Lycoming-8 it seems as tho you have solved the complete problem in one fell swoop! I may even know why my Toyota Solara V-6 does the same thing when they overfill the overflow tank at Penskes. The next time I take it in for a check of one kind or another I will find out. Thank you. M.L. Anderson :D

Edit: After doing all of the above I went to the local friendly Kragen auto parts store and looked at a bunch of thermostats for various cars and the one for V-6 Toyotas has a very small sharp "V" on periphery and not a very big one at that. I suspect that it is just not large enough to do the job it is intended to do. Some of them have holes about 3/32?, .0937? or 2.38mm to do the job, also some of them have a small ?wriggler? in them for some purpose. M.L. A.

Edit # 2 Dec.-08-2003, After doing the above I cleaned off the top of the plastic bottle with a worn toothbrush and dried it off with a white Kleenex. Which showed signs of the Red Coolant in a very small amount around the top of the cap. The level of the coolant is to the Toyota owner?s manual. But still the coolant seems to be overflowing the cap. I intend too keep this up for several days to see if it continues in this fashion. But I believe that the hole is not of sufficient size to prevent the act of regurgitation of the coolant in a Burp as described by Lycomimg-8. It may not be much but it is annoying.

Edit # 3 Dec. 10-2003 Have been doing the Kleenex bit several times a day and same results. It is wet around the top of the outlet wher the cap goes on but a very small amount barely enought to see on the tissue.

Edit # 4 Dec. 12 One more thing about the cap on the bottle! Make very certain that you put it on until it pops if that is the way to lock it on. What happens if this is not done on the Camry is that it pops off and sprays coolant all over the top of the bottle and makes you feel foolish. <!-- s:oops: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed" /><!-- s:oops: -->

Message from Stant; ML, a thermostat's bleed notch, jiggle pin, or check valve all have essentially the same function. That is, to allow trapped air in the cooling system to exit after it is refilled after a flush or thermostat replacement. Different OEMs use different designs to accomplish this. Most thermostats for domestic cars use a bleed notch. This is a tiny notch cut out between the thermostat valve and flange. Most European cars use a check valve, which is a ball in a cage on the flange which modulates opening and closing a hole. Most Asian built cars use a jiggle pin (your wriggler). This is a ball with a stem that goes through the flange which modulates as air is pushed out.
Without this air bleed system, trapped air would stay in the engine lowering the efficiency of cooling system.

Edit # 5. After all this, the problem seems to be the cap and its tightness to the bottle which has to be TIGHT. The reason for this is very apparent after all the trouble and that is that the motion of the fluid under braking and accelration. Over on the right hand side of the bottle is a VENT built into the bottle to slow the passege overflow under braking whic is shaped like a "Z" to help prevent various types of overflow . The reason for it being to the side is one ordinarily makes turns at less "Gees" than under braking.
End of s :D:Dtory ,I hope!
M.L. Anderson

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14 Dec 2003 17:24 #1112 by Josh Malks
Josh Malks replied the topic: No bleed hole on Cord thermostats
While I don't have one in my hand at the moment, I don't recall ever seeing a bleed hole or notch in the Cord thermostat. (Certainly no wriggler.)

That's probably because the thermostat used has a huge bleed orifice: the outlet to the intake manifold. When the coolant is cold and the thermostat is closed, the "sleeve valve" on top of the thermostat is open to the intake manifold, so water doesn't get trapped at the thermostat.

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14 Dec 2003 18:33 #1113 by leslie9958
leslie9958 replied the topic: Thermostats and the air problem.
The problem is that you have a complete system to worry about not just the hole in the thermostat. I would make a suggestion that Cord owners study very carefully the whole air problem in the V-8 engine and see just where the highest portion of the coolant is supposed to be. After ascertaining just where this area is then put an overflow bottle/pipes/hoses in the appropriate place. It may well be that the radiator cap is not the highest place. To function correctly the overflow must be in the highest place to work correctly after the HOT engine is shut for the day! Remember the engine doesn?t cool for about 3 or 4 hours in an ambient temperature of 68 degrees. This is especially true it the car is in a closed garage with no airflow around the car. This is the time that the system works to purge the air from the system. My guess is that it takes several times for this to happen and even then it is a continuing day-to-day process.

Yours, M.L. Anderson :)

1920's
The antifreeze/coolant business, as we know it today, began with the marketing of "Prestone" brand ethylene glycol antifreeze in 1927. It was pure ethylene glycol in cans, with published charts showing protection afforded by specific quantities. It would not boil away or burn, and was comparatively odorless, offering a distinct advantage to some of the substances used previously.

1930's
In 1930, Prestone developed and marketed the first inhibitor to further protect the cooling system and retard rust formation.

1960's
In the early 60s, all three U.S. car companies - Ford Motor Company, General Motors and Chrysler - began installing a 50% water and 50% ethylene glycol antifreeze solution in their new cars, which led to the
emergence of antifreeze/coolant as a year-round functional fluid - just as important as engine oil or automatic transmission fluid.

1970's
In 1972, the product was reformulated to incorporate the unique, patented silicone-silicate copolymer which greatly enhanced its inhibitor effectiveness, particularly for aluminum cooling system components.

1980's
In 1981, Prestone® antifreeze/coolant was again reformulated to provide even better corrosion protection for the increasing number of aluminum cooling system components used in cars.

1990's
In 1994, Prestone introduced many new products in the antifreeze and car care categories including Prestone® LowTox? antifreeze/coolant, Prestone® Extended Life 5/150 antifreeze/coolant and RV antifreeze. Prestone LowTox antifreeze/coolant provides an added margin of safety against accidental ingestion by pets and wildlife and is endorsed by the ASPCA. Extended Life 5/150 antifreeze/coolant provides protection for 5 years or 150,000 miles and is licensed by NASCAR®*. RV antifreeze protects potable water systems from freeze-ups. Prestone antifreeze/coolant became the official antifreeze of NASCAR®*.

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14 Dec 2003 18:48 #1114 by Josh Malks
Josh Malks replied the topic: Overflow
Your suggestions and observations are very welcome, M.L.

Yet we are constantly reminded that the engineers of the 1930s --- without benefit of computers --- almost always got the basics right. This was definitely true of Auburn and Lycoming. And, in this case, radiator manufacturer Jamestown. The overflow pipe on the Cord radiator top tank is indeed very close to the highest point in the coolant system.

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