Skip to main content

Weight Bias for the 1937 cord Westchester

  • cbs
  • Topic Author
  • Visitor
  • Guest
11 Nov 2005 01:52 #3926 by cbs
Should have said "lower the HISTORICAL value of this Classic Car", Sunroof read it as monetary ie. $$ which is understandable given the auction madness when the market's up.

Converting back to original bulb & socket setup with original lens/reflector setup wasn't easy but now permits driving at dusk and beyond with original 6 volt intensity. Predawn is exciting too. The parts are out there if you ask around.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • sunroofcord
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Registered
More
10 Nov 2005 15:14 #3923 by sunroofcord
Replied by sunroofcord on topic JUST FOR THE RECORD
I would like to Thank All of you for your input on this subject. When I wrote my original post in this column, it was done with emotion and irritation. Being a human being, sometimes we all let our emotions get the best of us. I felt at the time I wrote my original post that the authors original question was not being answered and he was being criticized for what he chose to do wth his car. I strongly believe that what ever you own, Cord or otherwise, it' s your car and nobody has the right to tell you what to do with it no matter how they feel personally. The comment that "you are ruining another valuable Classic Car" is what triggered my response to CBS original post. As I look back, I should of waited till I calmed down before I posted that comment and if I was too hard on CBS, I apologize to you. I'm glad you came back with another post. Yesterday, I sent a personal apology to LS-1, the original author of this post that his post turned into a controversy of original versus modified rather then a discussion about his original post. In doing so, I found out that he is not even the owner and that the car is a customers. LS-1 has no say in what the owner does with his car. I was also talking to a fellow who happens to be a Dealer the other day and we were discussing this subject. We ended up discussing all the Cords we know of sitting around that can't be bought because the owners think they are worth more then they really are. He was telling me as a Dealer, he just could not represent these over priced cars. Example: On his website for quite some time, he had a white Cord Phaeton modified years ago with a tri-carb Oldsmobile engine. This Cord needed a complete restoraton and the asking price was $48,500. Yes the car was a Convertible, but is one that needs everything worth this kind of money????? They were offered $35,000 and turned it down. Both myself and the Dealer felt they should of taken the $35,000 and ran with it but the owner had been told the car was worth $50,000 and was going to hold to that price. The Dealer took this car off his website as he could no longer represent it at the outrageous asking price. Another Cord lost???? We also discussed the good running Cord Sedan that was recently bought for $12,000 and parted out because the buyer couldn't 'resell it for $20,000. This is my concern about being "worth more in parts". Now I haven't seen this particular Cord in the flesh and don't know what condition it truly was in but I do know that it was running. In our discussion here, we have talked about the fact that some Cords have to be sacrificed to restore another. I can understand that but once the one that is parted out to restore another, what do we do with the remains of the parted out one and then "who is ruining the valuable Classic Car????" Would it not be better to let somebody build a Street Rod out of it then destroy the remains???? Considering this, none of us have any idea of what LS-1's customer started with, so do any of us (myself included) have the right to tell him that he is ruining another valuable Classic Car????? He may have a Sedan that was used as a parts car to restore a Convertible which seems to be the norm as most (not all) believe the Convertibles to be of more value. There are actually those out there that don't even like the Convertibles and would rather have a Sedan any day. As for value, I strongly believe the true value of anything is only "what the buyer is willing to pay for it" That obviously varies with each of us as we are all human and have different opinions. If I were showing my Cord or anything else I would have much more interest in talking to the person who was truly interested in the car whether it was original ,restored, or modified then the person who only cared about what it was worth. I personally dislike that question. In closing, even though I do not have a dislike of modified cars, I do agree with Kevins concern about restored cars being built into modified cars. I too don't care to see a nicely restored or nice original car turned into a Street Rod but there are some cars that there isn't much else you can do with them. There will always be the modified vs. restoration controversy and maybe we all should take the time to see what the owner started with before we tell them that they are "ruining another Classic Car" As Curtis says, lets all just try to get along for now.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Kevin
  • Topic Author
  • Visitor
  • Guest
10 Nov 2005 02:01 #3915 by Kevin
Replied by Kevin on topic sorry no wiper blades
Hi CBS,

Sorry no wiper blades, I could use a set as well. One thing I am trying to accomplish on the sportsman is converting the headlights back to original. At some time seal beams were installed and I would like to go back to the original.

I've been told that lenses are like hens teeth, and reflectors almost as rare.

But isn't it the search that makes this hobby so much fun?

Kevin

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • cbs
  • Topic Author
  • Visitor
  • Guest
10 Nov 2005 01:01 #3914 by cbs
So what's LS1 Cord planning to do anyway? Hope it's a fun project and of course it's going to be unique. One of my best Cord friends made a super-modified Cord, unbelievably Cool.

If you had an early '50s Beechcraft twin, putting jet engines into it would be lots of challenging fun, however the originality guys wouldn't look favorably on it. Likewise modifying a Frank Lloyd Wright house by making fairly large departures from the original design/intent would get lots of attention but destroy the historical value.

The Cord's a landmark industrial design recognized in history and art journals, sedan convert or otherwise. Especially the first sedans, agreed.

Witness the demise of the Viper as fastest car, this year and you realize that there's always going to be something hotter and faster on the horizon. Since the Cord has already had a documented period at the top of the heap, that's the car I'd want...the as-built champion, unmodded.

I support anyone's right to modify their car, but prefer an original, Auburn, Cord, Duesenberg or otherwise. Anyone got some good original wiper blades?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Kevin
  • Topic Author
  • Visitor
  • Guest
09 Nov 2005 19:41 #3912 by Kevin
Replied by Kevin on topic A few additonal thoughts
As I have re-read the postings on this subject, it is clear each of us has a love for the 810/812 Cords. My response to sunroof was due to the manner in which he treated CBS. I thought that with the information given concerning LT-1's weight ratios question he was somewhat vague, because he did not specify his intention. Is he planning to install an LT-1? he did not say, so CBS was right on target, because that change would substantially alter the ratio from stock. CBS also addressed the brake issue, etc. He did state his opinion in his opening remarks, but went one to supply what I felt is a good response with the information given.

As to value of open cars, vs. sedans. In all eras, Convertibles have traditionally been more valuable than Sedans. As long as I can remember, that has been a fact of life. In coin collecting, stamp collecting the stock market, real estate, and yes, in the car hobby, value and collectability always has been established by rarity (numbers produced) availability (how many are on the market) and popularity ( a convertible Yugo versus Corvette roadster). Look at the Muscle car market right now. Those boomers who relate to that period are paying enormous money, while the Model A Ford generation have all but stopped purchasing them, which is reflected in the price they are both now bringing.

Fortunately, ACD cars will always be collectible and valuable due to the nature of the design and the rarity. I agree with sunroof that the visual features of the Cord make them attractive to everyone, but his statement that mechanicals do not matter I cannot agree with. Part of what makes a Cord so fascinating to me as well as those who have never seen one, are the mechanicals. When I open the hood of our Sportsman, people flock to see the supercharger with the side pipes, and listen intently as I explain how the transmission shifts from a small lever on the column. They love the instrumentation and headlight feature, etc etc. Plus they can be functional with a little work. I recall the story in the ACD newsletter of the gentlemen from California who drove his Cord to Auburn and back, well over 4000 miles.

Another fact of life, is that cars have been and will continue to be parted out to keep others on the road. Some ACD cars have been neglected and are more valuable for parts. The principle of "highest and best use" applies here as well. If a car is substantially restorable it should be. But if it's values lies more in usable parts to keep restorable cars on the road, that is a higher use. Unfortunately over the years and today, some people are "in it" for the money. Taking restorable cars and parting them out. If that is what sunroof is referring to, we are both in agreement.

What bothers me is something I witnessed first hand a few years ago. A local rodder found a barn fresh 32 Ford Roadster. All original with the original V-8 Flathead. The seller had actually got the car to run, and with some borrowed tires was able to drive it after 30 plus years. The interior and top were even in tack and very usable for patterns, etc. The car was torn apart, the original frame boxed and you know the rest.... The rodder certainly had the right to do all that, but, in my opinion, a piece of history was destroyed. I just fear that in the hot rod craze, many restorable cars are being lost.

So, in summary, keep it real if at all possible, modify it you must, but enjoy it regardless.

And bailingwire, I look forward to seeing your Monster Cord, perhaps we could line up a bunch of Model A Fords for it to crush..... <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Curtis Bartell
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Registered
More
09 Nov 2005 16:43 #3910 by Curtis Bartell
Replied by Curtis Bartell on topic modified Cords, Open vs Closed
First of all, I won't touch the the above argument. But it does bring to mind some ideas I've thought long and hard about for a long time. I love Cords as much as the next guy, and I am thankful that even though the Cord is one of the most sought after full blown classics in the world, I can still afford to own one. This is due in large part to people having diverse opinions about what the ultimate Cord is all about. (see above discussion). I think that open cars are the most beautiful things to ever grace the road, and I would love to own one, but in reality, I could never afford one. Isn't it ironic that the very car Gordon Buehrig penned, closed sedan, without Alex Tremulis' pipes, (I love those pipes!), happens to be the cheapest Cord you can buy? Imagine that! An entry level Cord, and the one truest to form at that! Life don't get any better than that. I wish my 37' didn't have that wart of a trunk on her, but I love her anyway. Who knows, maybe someday the purists will be looking for closed unsupercharged cars. Why don't we all just try to get along for now. There's plenty of room for every one. Regards Curt

"I've cut it twice and it's still too short."

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • balinwire
  • Offline
  • Premium Member
  • Registered
More
09 Nov 2005 00:59 #3907 by balinwire
Replied by balinwire on topic keep it real
If the closed cars are not of enough value to preserve it is that the marque is only known to a few auto enthusiasts, the average Joe six-pack has no idea of what an old car is and certainly would not own one because they cannot go 100.000 miles between oil changes.

If the 810-12 series were in the public eye the values would permit restorations of the closed cars. There might have to be a few sacrifice vehicles to keep the few other cars running, as all cars run on used parts. The used parts are used to maintain and complete the remaining cars, not sold for scrap.

The cars always were worth five times more than an average American car so they had value when new, and non-running cars were kept in storage during the shortages and metal drives during the war.

As for modified the type of work I have seen on the few modified is admirable and of the highest standards due to the respect for the body style. Old is also just my goal in life, old furniture, old houses, and old cars. I am not in any way in favor of modification, but tolerant.

As crazy as it sounds I have found a way to dazzle the population. I have love 50?s Chevy panels as long as I can remember. They were cheap and there was lots of room in the back.

Well my proposal is to take a Cord sedan body, solder the doors shut, build a full framed box chassis, install a full military four-wheel drive and enter it in monster truck rallies. Heck it worked for the Bigfoot truck, cant hardly touch a nice panel.

Imagine 50,000 screaming spectators, screaming with delight as the Cord jumps an airplane.

The exhibition of such a feat would bring recognition, TV time, and movie roles for the unknown marque.

I could finally find a toy Cord for the kids in the Wal-Mart toy isle.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • sunroofcord
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Registered
More
08 Nov 2005 17:58 #3905 by sunroofcord
Replied by sunroofcord on topic PART IT OUT OR STREET ROD IT ????
Kevin; You make some excellent points. You and I obviously don't agree and you are entitled to your opinion as am I. I was not trying to be critical of those who come to this forum for the cars they love although it probably came across that way. When I wrote that post, I felt like you did when you read mine. I felt that someone was being critical of what some one else did with there car. It's there car and they can do as they choose with it, not what some one else thinks they should do with it. Personally, I would not want to see a nice original or restored car street rodded either. In my humble opinion, I felt that the post before mine was inappropriate in response to the original authors questions. My post may of been inappropriate also but I was trying to get a point across. Forgetting about the street rod aspect for a moment, how many Cords are left???? How many are being parted out because there "worth more in parts"???? Once all these Cords are parted out, and once there's none left, what good are the parts???? I may of been too blunt in my prior post but it seems to me that way too many Cords are being parted out because they are "worth more in parts" That's the main point I was trying to get across. Personally, I just like Cords, one has been in my life since I was 7 years old. I'm now 50. To me the car has no value, it's part of me. I personally just like Cords whether they be Original, Restored or Street Rodded. To me, the beauty of a Cord is in the design, not the mechanicals. Cords have been modified since the day they were new. Alot of the earlier modified Cords are now being restored and some that were never restored are now being modified. As far as your comment about sunroofs, you may want to do your research. The picture is from 1948 and the sunroof was put in by the original owner, a band leader from Chicago just after he bought this Cord new. And if it makes you feel any better, when this Cord finally gets restored, it will be original and Driven.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Kevin
  • Topic Author
  • Visitor
  • Guest
08 Nov 2005 16:18 #3904 by Kevin
Replied by Kevin on topic Just an observation.....
As I have read the previous posts, again the never ending debate over original versus modified or rodded rears it's ugly head. In the spirit of this forum and it's sponsor, I quote the mission statement of the ACD club as documented in the club introduction.

[i:65thqdrx]"The ACD Club is an Organization for the Restoration and Preservation of Original AUBURN, CORD and DUESENBERG Automobiles.

The Auburn-Cord-Duesenberg Club is incorporated as a non-profit corporation. The general purpose of the club is to preserve and maintain specimens of three fine automobiles of American manufacture, namely, Auburn, Cord, and Duesenberg; to preserve and maintain an accurate source of technical and historical information on these three automobiles for the benefit of the club membership and other sincerely interested persons. The club recognizes all Auburn, Cord, and Duesenberg automobiles built prior to 1940. "[/i:65thqdrx]

I realize that not all members may share that commitment to preservation, and that fortunately we live in a free country. We can do whatever we desire in regards to our cars. But, if a person is taking a car that is restorable, meaning complete with original drive train, trim etc, and discarding those original parts to update with new drivetrain, etc. Then they are not keeping with the spirit of the clubs mission. On the other hand, if the car is basically a shell, with little remaining of original powertrain, trim, etc, and is put back on the road using modern components, then perhaps that is not such a bad thing.

Again that must be tempered with the value of the car. I recently saw a sub-frame with engine and trans sell on ebay for (I believe) $8900.00. Perhaps that is too pricey to resurrect a Westchester, but not a Cabriolet of Phaeton.

To sum up my opinion, this forum, as I understand the mission statement of the organization, is to promote and assist in the restoration and preservation of ACD cars. To challenge a posting, with that spirit in mind with "Hog Wash. Would you rather see this Cord saved as a Street Rod or parted out" and "Thank the guy for SAVING another Cord" goes counter the that mission statement. "Saving" a Cord in the spirit of the ACD Club is making it substantially original, and not changing it with LS-1's, A/C, power brakes, power windows, and even sunroofs.

There are plenty of forums for the rodders, I know I have been to many of them. And if that is what you are into, that is fine, but please do not be critical of those who come to this forum with the desire to preserve the cars they love.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • sunroofcord
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Registered
More
07 Nov 2005 23:15 #3901 by sunroofcord
Replied by sunroofcord on topic PART IT OUT OR STREET ROD IT ????
Hog Wash. Would you rather see this Cord saved as a Street Rod or parted out like what's happening with a lot of them because they are "worth more in parts" then as a whole???? At least as a Street Rod or Modified Car, it's another Cord SAVED and not another Cord LOST to being parted out because "it's worth more in parts" Not all of us are so wealthy that we can afford the high price of Cord Parts that are "worth more then a whole car" After all these Cords are parted out because they are "worth more in parts" and there's no Cords left because they were all parted out, what will the parts be worth then???? Nothing, because there won't be any Cords left, just a lot of high priced Cord parts that no body can use. So, rather then a post about ruining another valuable Classic Car, Thank the guy for SAVING another Cord and if you can't help him with the question he asked, don't post anything at all. The hell with value, drive the cars and let the real car enthusiasts enjoy them, original, restored, or modified. You can't take all that money with you when you die anyways.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • cbs
  • Topic Author
  • Visitor
  • Guest
06 Nov 2005 23:51 #3890 by cbs
You're not planning on installing an LS1 V8 (GM late '90s/early '00s) thats charged, now, are you?

If so, your weight balance won't resemble stock anyway, and you should do actuals with portable scales, including your Firebird WS6/Camaro SS or Corvette motor weight, minus the cutting involved for rear drive application.

You're brakes will need some upgrading too. The Lycoming V8 is a historically correct landmark V8, and even stock held speed records for many years. In the end, you'll lower the value of this Classic Car...tell me it's not true.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • LS-1 Cord
  • Topic Author
  • Visitor
  • Guest
04 Nov 2005 14:04 #3875 by LS-1 Cord
I'm an automotive designer and I have a 1937 Cord Westchester here but I don't know the weight bias front to back and left to right. If someone has weighed there car before on scales out curiosity if you could inform me to as what your figure were that would be extremely useful.

Thank You

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Powered by Kunena Forum