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Please help with my Phaeton Top Lowering problems

  • Terry Cockerell
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06 Oct 2021 21:12 #44016 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Please help with my Phaeton Top Lowering problems
Hi Aris, good to hear you were able to resolve the problems you had with the top.
I think modern tires are wider than what were around when our Cords were new. I had to raise the trunk shelf about 3/4" to allow the Firestone spare to slide in.
Regarding preserving Rich Hulett's precious files, I agree this should be done.
Perhaps the Forums Web Master could create a site to store the information?

T cockerell
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  • Aris Loumidis
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06 Oct 2021 09:09 - 06 Oct 2021 09:11 #44008 by Aris Loumidis
Replied by Aris Loumidis on topic Please help with my Phaeton Top Lowering problems
Problem resolved!

Had a 4-person team working over the weekend and the problems are resolved!
1. We removed the top completely, minus the first bow(windshield). It is not that difficult to do, we just had to unscrew the wooden screws from the two wooden beams #4 and #5.
2. The wooden screws came off easily and there were no more pre-existing holes on the wooden beams, meaning they were in their correct places.
3. The problem of the Bow Scratching the carpet on the LH side was caused at the bolts securing the adjusting plates, as shown on the pictures. The bolts were too long and overhung out of plate, so when folding down they would rub and scratch the carpet. I cut the bolt ends flush to the plate and that was it!



4. We inspected and confirmed the iron structure had been assembled properly, no bent or wrongly assembled bars, only the joints needed some oiling to fold easily.
5. We refitted the top on the beams and followed the procedure for lowering, and YES it went in all the way down!
My mistake was mainly not raising the structure up vertical before lowering it down ( see below), stiff joints, and most of all not folding the material along with the pads outside the beams, especially at the sided.

Here are my own additions to the Bulletins instructions:
a. With the buttons, latches, bolts, lid etc done, you start by lifting the #5 wooden beam as close to the #4 wooden beam.
b. Lift the whole structure up and as vertical as you can make it, THEN start lowering down, starting with beams #4 and #5 together as low as they will go. NOTE I choose to remove completely the Removable Rear Curtain with the window and store it elsewhere, it makes a big difference.
c. Continue lowering each beam one at a time as low as they will go and MAKE SURE top material with the cushions are NOT in between the beams, especially at the sides!
The Bulletin No 46 is confusing because it shows the top Folded over the car on the pages for Raising the top, while for Lowering is has a picture of most of the top already inside. Again, lift the whole structure up and as vertical as you can make it, then start lowering first beams #4 and #5 together as low as they will go, followed by the others.

d. WOODEN TRAY The wooden tray was obstructing the beams to go all the way down, allowing thus space for the folded top to easily go in. I removed a good part of it and I also put my spare tire in a plastic bag, so not to get the top material dirty; it also helps putting in out pulling it out.
e. SPARE TIRE FITTING. With the top all the way in, I found my spare tire rubbing on the #4 beam at the front end and on the carpet of the trunk lid at the other. It fits with no more space available! My spare is 6.50-16 B. F. Goodrich 4 ply so who knows, maybe it is just a very tight fit.

And a QUESTION TO ALL: Is there somewhere a file or source where club members can find Ricks’ Expertise? Besides tops he sent me carpet, door and so many more explicit detailed instructions of how to get things done on our classics. I don’t know if Rick is survived and if his descendants would agree to have such tech info published, from my part and because we got very close over the years he spent doing the work on my car, I believe he would want his work to endure and last through time…………. Any IDEAS?

Aris Loumidis
Athens, Greece
ACD Life Member
______________
1936 CORD 810 Phaeton
Last edit: 06 Oct 2021 09:11 by Aris Loumidis. Reason: My Mistake corrected

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  • Terry Cockerell
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18 Sep 2021 10:26 #43915 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Please help with my Phaeton Top Lowering problems
Tom, Aris's phaeton has a unique history. It was the only Cord ever sold new into Greece by the ACD agents in Switzerland. During WW2 the owner excavated a bunker, drove the car in and buried it to keep it safe from the Nazis. They were aware of the car but could not find it. After the war the bunker was uncovered and the precious contents driven out.
Consequently it is and always has been a very special Cord.

T cockerell
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  • Roads2run
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17 Sep 2021 22:40 #43913 by Roads2run
Aris, regarding the top bow rubbing on the drivers side, might the offending bow be mounted to its top iron in different holes in the bow and not the originals? If the top iron and bow are mounted in a different location and were moved farther apart they might take up more space and cause the rubbing on the side of the car. I'd start by studying the top in the up position. From the rear of the car do you see a lack of symmetry? Also, measure the distance between the end of the bow and the end of the iron on both sides of the car to see how they compare. As the bows are covered with bowdrill it will be a bit difficult to see if the bow has been mounted in new holes. I also forget if they are attached with "T" nuts and machine screws, or screwed into the core of the top bow with wood screws. For your second issue, it looks from your photos like the end of the iron making contact is farther away from the center of the car than the same piece on the other side. This would cause it to be hitting due to the radius of the top well opening. If that's the issue, could you simply move the top irons toward the drivers side and gain clearance so it fits down in the well? I do not recall how much movement is possible as its been many years since we owned our Cord. Also, might the two issues be connected? So, if the mounting holes in the bow or bows are the culprit, fixing them might alleviate the problem with the second issue. If this doesn't help I'm not sure what to suggest, but there is a solution, just persevere. Hope this helps and good luck. You have a very good looking Cord!!!
Tom Hartz

Roads2run
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  • Terry Cockerell
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16 Sep 2021 03:52 #43907 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Please help with my Phaeton Top Lowering problems
Yes, I also agree the phaeton tops look good but you have to remember to duck your head whereas with the sedans you can just climb in.
I have been in four different phaetons and bagged by head on two occasions. There is not much difference in height but you just have to remember to duck! I suppose phaeton owners just do it automatically?
Good luck with sorting out your problems Aris.

T cockerell

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  • john mccall
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16 Sep 2021 02:11 #43906 by john mccall
Replied by john mccall on topic Please help with my Phaeton Top Lowering problems
Agreed , the top looks great in the supposition and fits the frame fine.

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  • Aris Loumidis
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15 Sep 2021 16:21 #43903 by Aris Loumidis
Replied by Aris Loumidis on topic Please help with my Phaeton Top Lowering problems
Sorry John, I might have confused you. The two pictures in my previous post show Pierre's top and the top on my car taken at the time that I bought it, i.e. before the restoration and the new top from Rick. I should have noted that the top had shrunk over the years and could not be stretched enough to latch on the rear lid.
All three tops shown look alike and even though I can’t tell if they all are High or Low types, Rick's top fits very nicely thus I don’t think I have a frame to top mismatch as shown here:

Aris Loumidis
Athens, Greece
ACD Life Member
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1936 CORD 810 Phaeton

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  • john mccall
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15 Sep 2021 00:49 #43899 by john mccall
Replied by john mccall on topic Please help with my Phaeton Top Lowering problems
The reason for asking if the car was suppose to have a high or low top is that for instance, if the top is cut for a hi frame, but the frame is actually a low frame, and the installer isn't aware, he will have too much material when fitting the top. Since he doesn't know this the canvas doesn't match the frame and can fold in an incorrect way causing the bows not to come down into the allotted space as they should. The reverse situation could cause the material to be short in certain places and possibly pull too tightly in certain areas.

The picture of the 2 cars says to me that the rear bow isn't latched in the second pic, or the canvas is too long to get the top to be tight at the rear in the up position, as it in the first pic.
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  • Aris Loumidis
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14 Sep 2021 21:10 #43898 by Aris Loumidis
Replied by Aris Loumidis on topic Please help with my Phaeton Top Lowering problems
John thanks, great idea! I will check the trunk board and I hope this could be the reason for not fitting in, so that I'll only have the twisted issue to resolve!

Here are the serials attachment]

I cant remember if we discussed with Rick the high-low top but we did discuss the rear window and even though my car had the small one, I decided to bent on originality for safety reasons. My car came here new, ordered from Switzerland from Pierre Trachsler's father who was the rep back then. Pierre, not with us anymore, helped me a lot, we visited each other and the pictures i took from his Phaeton's S/C interior, show exactly what I have, bows etc. From what i can tell, his top in the picture below looks just like mine. There is Pierre in his S/C and my car when I bought it, so I can only conclude that whether High or Low, I must have the correct top for my frame.



In a couple of weeks I plan to work on this and post my findings, thaks guys for your help so far!

Aris Loumidis
Athens, Greece
ACD Life Member
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1936 CORD 810 Phaeton

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  • wynlaidig
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14 Sep 2021 11:54 #43897 by wynlaidig
I am not sure why high or low top should matter. They didn't change the body dimensions or seat location on the vehicles, so either style of top should fit into the allotted space, except for the larger window opening needed in the trunk shelf, which he does have, according to one of his pictures. I think the problem is most likely to be "it is easy to get things a little bit cocked or the bows going into the trunk area in an order, or tucking the material too late, etc."

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  • john mccall
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14 Sep 2021 01:15 #43896 by john mccall
Replied by john mccall on topic Please help with my Phaeton Top Lowering problems
What is your serial number? When ordering the top from Rick, did you have the conversation about high and low top? Did you end up making measurements to confirm whether you had the high or low top? If there was some miscommunication on this subject with Rick, that could be part of your problem. Top bows could have been swapped at some point to get a high when the serial number would indicate a low top.

Putting the top up or down is not an easy task. I have done it only with a helper to try to get both sides to move somewhat in unison. It usually works best with my son helping. Lately I have had to ask my wife to help . We usually confirm after the job is complete that we are still married!
I have a non Rick top, in the up position that has worked reasonably well in the 25 years that I have owned it. I also have a possibly original top in the folded position that has been removed from the body. If you make some measurements from the pivot points to the closest attachment points on your top for each of the bows I could check those against what I have.
Your pics definitely indicate significant issues that could be the result of incorrect installation , incorrect pattern for high or low top, or not enough good assistance putting it up or down. It is easy to get things a little bit cocked or the bows going into the trunk area in an improper order, or tucking the material too late etc..

Relative to your installation of a large back window. Did you re-cut your trunk board to the proper dimensions to accommodate the larger window? If so, it should fit in the allotted area.
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  • Aris Loumidis
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12 Sep 2021 08:42 #43891 by Aris Loumidis
Replied by Aris Loumidis on topic Please help with my Phaeton Top Lowering problems
As you wrote Gary, no staples sounds logical and to support this I did find elsewhere black tacks that were nailed on the wooden part of the beams.
Now to my problems, two or three tacks I found RIPPED OFF because of the stretching when I push the folded top to make it go in place. I wonder if that indicates where my problem is.

Aris Loumidis
Athens, Greece
ACD Life Member
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1936 CORD 810 Phaeton

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  • 1748 S
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11 Sep 2021 17:48 #43888 by 1748 S
I believe no staples were used in any cars of this era. Only upholstery tacks. If you have your car in judging you will get points taken off of staples. Other than that I'm at a loss for help. If my tack information is wrong someone will update me...


Gary Parsons

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  • Aris Loumidis
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11 Sep 2021 15:38 #43887 by Aris Loumidis
Replied by Aris Loumidis on topic Please help with my Phaeton Top Lowering problems
Hey Terry and wynlaidig,
Thank you both for the prompt response! I do have the Bulletin but it only describes how to put up and down the top, whereas I need to understand how to ADJUST the whole structure that apparently has not been fitted properly in the car. Additionaly I need to know if the torn stiching and those staples are original and should stay in place or the local upholsterer put them there.
Unfortunatelly my friend Rick and the local guy are not with us any more so I'm trying to find out how to go about this.

Aris Loumidis
Athens, Greece
ACD Life Member
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1936 CORD 810 Phaeton

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  • wynlaidig
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11 Sep 2021 01:32 #43885 by wynlaidig
The best way is the follow the instructions in the service bulletin. See attached file. The Phaeton instructions are after the cabriolet instructions.

This browser does not support PDFs. Please download the PDF to view it: Download PDF

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  • Terry Cockerell
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11 Sep 2021 01:09 - 11 Sep 2021 01:12 #43884 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Please help with my Phaeton Top Lowering problems
Perhaps some kind member out there with a phaeton could post a film of how the top is taken down, stored and then put up again.
The recent film on Woodlights made by Joel has set a new standard for sharing information.

T cockerell
Last edit: 11 Sep 2021 01:12 by Terry Cockerell. Reason: Revising text.
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  • Aris Loumidis
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10 Sep 2021 20:26 #43882 by Aris Loumidis
Hi all!

After all those years I have put up the top only a few times and the main reason is that it is VERY hard to do, even though I try to follow the relative Service Bulletin No 46 as best I can.

Here are the TWO problems I have:

1. MISALIGNED BOWS. When lowering, the BOWS keep scratching the carpet lining on the LH vertical side. The RH side does not have this problem. Here are the pics, LH side with scratch and RH side intact.





Furthermore the Top Bow on the one side deos not fit in on the RH side, while the LH side goes in nicely, here they are:



Any ideas how to re-align the Bows?



2. FOLDING and FITTING IN PLACE

The car came with the small window but I replaced it with the later bigger one, and obviously it wont fold in place as shown on the bulletin. So the whole snap-on material with the window I store elsewhere.

Nevertheless, even though I fold the top material in between the bows as per the bulletin diagrams. it is almost impossible to lower it into place! The BOWS are original, the TOP is the closest it can be, as it was made by my good friend Rick Hullet. So what is wrong?

As shown on the following pictures, when folded and trying to squeeze in, in the edges of the bows the material is so much stressed that the STICHING has been torn and some STAPLES (?) are also already missing!

So I wonder could the local upholsterer who fitted the material onto the BOWS, made a mistake and stitched them on to the bows all the way too far at the edges? Should I remove the staples and unstitch the material where it is stretched too much? Any other ideas?

Below are the detailed pictures on this issue, Thanks ahead guys!

Aris




Aris Loumidis
Athens, Greece
ACD Life Member
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1936 CORD 810 Phaeton
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