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Interior re-trim .

  • JIM.OBRIEN
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20 Jul 2021 00:22 #43534 by JIM.OBRIEN
Replied by JIM.OBRIEN on topic Interior re-trim
Terry,
I doubt the door weather seals were ever used on production Cords. Using these seals would require shortening the door panels by 3/8" and I don't think there is enough room in the channel at the bottom for the backing board and the rug and binding. Maybe they were intended to be used and instead they used the rugs on the bottom of the doors.

I did check the original door panels from my westchester (810 1383A) and there are no signs there was ever any weather seals on them.

Jim

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  • Terry Cockerell
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18 Jul 2021 23:06 #43531 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Interior re-trim .
Yes he is Mike. He was delighted to hear that is was in a safe and dry environment where it was being used and eventually restored. Pity I can't afford to bring it back to the US and Canada for an extended touring holiday when the restoration is completed. Acton, Keswick, Connersville and Auburn would be on the Bucket List.
Anybody out there wishing to donate to a good cause, please contact me?
PS. It will have to be a return trip as I would want to take it home.

T cockerell

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  • john mccall
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18 Jul 2021 22:30 #43530 by john mccall
Replied by john mccall on topic Interior re-trim .
Terry,
The more people that chime in the better. If they happen to be on the judging team that's great.
I looked at one more car, a 1936 Westchester, 1500 A. It has a bead attached to the door metal everywhere but the bottom. It is about 1/8 inch in diameter and as such it is just basically a trim item, barely coming out to the thickness of the door panel. We need SN's for the rest of the pics that were posted.
I might have a bottom door seal. I will have to see if I can locate it and check it against the blueprint.

John

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  • 1748 S
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18 Jul 2021 21:56 #43529 by 1748 S
Replied by 1748 S on topic Interior re-trim .
No classic car like an ACD should EVER end up not "out there"..... My feelings may not be shared by some car collectors. Drive them... Enjoy them. Let others enjoy the sound and sight of these fine cars.


Gary Parsons

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  • mikespeed35
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18 Jul 2021 21:41 #43528 by mikespeed35
Replied by mikespeed35 on topic Interior re-trim .
I'm sure he is happy where it ended up. It could have landed in a "collection" where it would never see the light of day again.
CORDiallyMike

Mike Huffman

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  • Terry Cockerell
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18 Jul 2021 20:17 #43527 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Interior re-trim .
Hi Mike. Yes he did, between the years 1958 and about 1966. He wishes he never sold it. He used it as his daily driver for a number of years as well long distance vacation trips to Florida. It was still like a new car then.

T cockerell

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  • mikespeed35
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18 Jul 2021 19:12 #43526 by mikespeed35
Replied by mikespeed35 on topic Interior re-trim .
Hi Terry, Did George VanNostrand once own your Cord?
CORDiallyMike

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  • Terry Cockerell
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18 Jul 2021 03:38 - 18 Jul 2021 05:57 #43525 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Interior re-trim .
John, this is probably an area that the Cord 810 812 Judges should be involved with?
Other areas of interest are the door seals. I understand the early cars had molded rubber seals. Actually I have copies of the drawings as they were found by the Hupmobile Car Club. Information supplied by Rick Hulett shows them fitted along the bottom edges of the door panels. One notable example that can be seen with them is the Hard Topped Coupe. The pictures of it were taken in the Factory in Connersville. This Coupe was built from a Cabriolet and Cabriolets appear pretty late in 810 production. There are always interesting anomalies with Cords.
The first and second drawings are for sedans.
The third drawing is for phaetons and probably cabriolets as well.

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T cockerell
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Last edit: 18 Jul 2021 05:57 by Terry Cockerell. Reason: Revising text and adding drawings

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  • john mccall
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18 Jul 2021 00:54 #43524 by john mccall
Replied by john mccall on topic Interior re-trim .
Terry,
Yes, I thought the reason this thread was started was to help define what the interiors and trunks looked like when the Cords were built. That's why I tend to question any info I see that is different from what I have seen or remember.

I have sent a summary of the emails I received from Rick to 2 people who I thought could benefit from the info. It would be great if we could get everyone who has info from Rick, to submit that info. The trick however, is to find someone who has the capability of organizing and correlating that info into a more digestible form. In the meantime if we could just get all the submissions on this sight somehow so that the general membership who are interested could read through the stuff.
John

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  • Terry Cockerell
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17 Jul 2021 05:44 #43522 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Interior re-trim .
John.
What you have said is a good idea.
My Cord which is known as the Actonite Cord due to its historical connections with Acton, Ontario has Serial No 810 1586 A.
A while ago in the Forums there was a suggestion to store all of the various information sheets and pictures that Rick Hulett had shared with the members however nothing that I am aware of has happened with this proposal. I have a lot of material that Rick kindly shared with me. I am happy to share it or pass it on to a suitable location.

T cockerell

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  • john mccall
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17 Jul 2021 01:29 #43521 by john mccall
Replied by john mccall on topic Interior re-trim .
Terry,
It seems we need to start attaching serial numbers to the pics we are showing so that we can define what is an early car and a late car. The serial number of the 810 Westchester that I looked at is 2582 A. The 812 Custom Beverly no. is 10095 S
John
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  • Terry Cockerell
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15 Jul 2021 22:22 #43515 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Interior re-trim .
Wyn, the welting around my Westchester door panels does not continue along the bottom edge . It is only along both sides and around the top of the door.

T cockerell

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  • wynlaidig
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15 Jul 2021 12:56 #43511 by wynlaidig
Replied by wynlaidig on topic Interior re-trim .
The welting on all 4 doors of my custom welting goes all around the top and down both sides. I have no evidence that it went across the bottom. On other cars I have seen, the welting seems to bend inward and disappear carpet strip begins (see last photo below from thefateofthesleepingbeauties.com). On my rear doors the welting is clearly cut at the top of the lower hinge. Seems strange, but that what I have. But since the lower carpet section on all but one of the doors has fallen off, I am not very confident about how the lower door sections were originally trimmed.







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  • Terry Cockerell
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15 Jul 2021 01:51 #43505 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Interior re-trim .
Wyn in the second picture showing the Custom Beverly door panel there appears to be a welting down the edge of the door fixed with drive nails.
The last 6" is missing.

T cockerell

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  • wynlaidig
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14 Jul 2021 19:11 #43503 by wynlaidig
Replied by wynlaidig on topic Interior re-trim .
Body color is black. Also the car had been repainted once in its history, and door panels removed during that process.

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  • 1748 S
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14 Jul 2021 18:33 #43501 by 1748 S
Replied by 1748 S on topic Interior re-trim .
Great descriptive pictures showing no questions about originality. I'm wondering why the bottom front edge has black... Maybe undercoating and the drilled holes... Maybe for air circulation to keep inside doors dry.


Gary Parsons

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14 Jul 2021 16:48 #43496 by wynlaidig
Replied by wynlaidig on topic Interior re-trim .
Below is an original front door panel from a S/C Custom Beverly #310112 S.





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  • Terry Cockerell
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14 Jul 2021 07:15 - 14 Jul 2021 23:55 #43492 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Interior re-trim .
Steve.
I am confused with your comments regarding carpet strips and the seat platform.
Can you attach a sketch to clarify what you mean?

Attached is a picture of the rear seat.

T cockerell
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Last edit: 14 Jul 2021 23:55 by Terry Cockerell. Reason: Adding picture

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  • Terry Cockerell
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14 Jul 2021 07:05 - 14 Jul 2021 07:11 #43491 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Interior re-trim .
Hi John we have just arrived home from a week away with our granddaughter. It has been school holidays here.
I based my door trim panels on information supplied by Mark Clayton and Tim Gilmartin whose Westchesters were restored very accurately. Mark's in particular as it is an early production Cord like mine.
At some early stage rubber door seals that were along the bottoms of the doors were dropped from production. Note, when my doors are close there is space between the door panels and the polished aluminium sill covers. The bottom of the door panels does not seal against the aluminium covers.
The last picture was taken in the Factory ............... you can see the original rubber seal along the bottom edge.


T cockerell
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Last edit: 14 Jul 2021 07:11 by Terry Cockerell. Reason: Adding pictures

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  • john mccall
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08 Jul 2021 01:19 #43468 by john mccall
Replied by john mccall on topic Interior re-trim .
Terry,
I checked a Westchester and a Custom Beverly this morning that have original interiors. Neither had the extra welting that you point on your car. The cars both have a welting that runs up the front, across the top, and down the back side of the doors but it is attached to the body with drive nails. Nothing at the bottom of the doors. This serves the purpose of sealing the doors from the outside air. At the bottom the sill plate has a ridge that contacts the door trim to serve the same purpose. Was this type of welting on your original door panels and what purpose would it serve?

John

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  • A.S. KOLLER
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07 Jul 2021 23:22 #43467 by A.S. KOLLER
Replied by A.S. KOLLER on topic Interior re-trim .
Thanks Terry,
I have no idea why the last post went out three times. Sorry about that.
I was not aware that there was a pipping around the door panel and the window frame.
My window frames go right to the edge of the door frame so a piping in this area would sit proud of the door frame and my front doors do not have the clearance to allow for that. I am not sure of what the reason for that would be
but I don't see a practical solution to the problem.
I believe my window frames are reproductions as there were holes the window weather strip attaches, so that might be the problem.

I noticed in the picture of the rear door that the carpeting strip along the rear of the seat platform does not wrap over the platform as I would have expected
and that the rear top of the platform is not carpeted.
Am I correct and if so is that and is is that correct?
Thanks
Steve

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  • Terry Cockerell
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05 Jul 2021 23:46 - 05 Jul 2021 23:50 #43459 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Interior re-trim .
Steve, yes the fabric is glued to the door trim panel around the reverse side.
My Westchester has the plain broadcloth door panels. My upholsterer glued a 1/4" layer of sponge foam rubber over the panel before fitting the broadcloth.
The window frame or garnish molding holds the panel in place along the top.
Note there is a welting that runs along the sides of the door panel and around the garnish molding.

T cockerell
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Last edit: 05 Jul 2021 23:50 by Terry Cockerell. Reason: Adding pictures and revising text.

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05 Jul 2021 21:16 #43458 by A.S. KOLLER
Replied by A.S. KOLLER on topic Interior re-trim .
Terry,
Referring to the picture of Rick Huletts door panel, it appears that the top of the upholstery is wrapped over the door cardboard and is fastened to the back of the panel .
I would have assumed that the fabric at the top would have been glued to the door at that point and covered by the window frame since the window frame can not go over the panel itself. This would keep the door panel from pulling away from the doo at the top and eliminate any potential gaps along the window frame.
This is basically what they did in the L-29's.
I would appreciate any comments.
Thanks,
Steve

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05 Jul 2021 21:16 #43457 by A.S. KOLLER
Replied by A.S. KOLLER on topic Interior re-trim .
Terry,
Referring to the picture of Rick Huletts door panel, it appears that the top of the upholstery is wrapped over the door cardboard and is fastened to the back of the panel .
I would have assumed that the fabric at the top would have been glued to the door at that point and covered by the window frame since the window frame can not go over the panel itself. This would keep the door panel from pulling away from the doo at the top and eliminate any potential gaps along the window frame.
This is basically what they did in the L-29's.
I would appreciate any comments.
Thanks,
Steve

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05 Jul 2021 21:16 #43456 by A.S. KOLLER
Replied by A.S. KOLLER on topic Interior re-trim .
Terry,
Referring to the picture of Rick Huletts door panel, it appears that the top of the upholstery is wrapped over the door cardboard and is fastened to the back of the panel .
I would have assumed that the fabric at the top would have been glued to the door at that point and covered by the window frame since the window frame can not go over the panel itself. This would keep the door panel from pulling away from the doo at the top and eliminate any potential gaps along the window frame.
This is basically what they did in the L-29's.
I would appreciate any comments.
Thanks,
Steve

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05 Jul 2021 21:16 #43455 by A.S. KOLLER
Replied by A.S. KOLLER on topic Interior re-trim .
Terry,
Referring to the picture of Rick Huletts door panel, it appears that the top of the upholstery is wrapped over the door cardboard and is fastened to the back of the panel .
I would have assumed that the fabric at the top would have been glued to the door at that point and covered by the window frame since the window frame can not go over the panel itself. This would keep the door panel from pulling away from the doo at the top and eliminate any potential gaps along the window frame.
This is basically what they did in the L-29's.
I would appreciate any comments.
Thanks,
Steve

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  • Tim Gilmartin
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20 May 2021 21:00 #43221 by Tim Gilmartin
Replied by Tim Gilmartin on topic Interior re-trim .
We’re a little away from Interior re-trim, but I have researched some numbers. I compared Josh’s info from Cord Complete with Ron Irwin’s Master List of known Cords. Adding up the number of renumbered 810s, including all the models (I.e. Westchester, Convertible Coupe, Phaeton, and Beverly), I have 175 cars that are in Ron’s list. Of course, there are gaps in the serial numbers that is caused by cars no longer in existence, or just unknown at this time.
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  • john mccall
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20 May 2021 01:21 #43215 by john mccall
Replied by john mccall on topic Interior re-trim .
Jack,
When I read the referenced engineering change and Josh Malks Timeless Classic appendix IV, I would state things a little differently than you and Tim. I would say, the company had a lot of unsold 810 cars and they decided to renumber them as 812 cars. The serial numbers on those unsold 810 cars ranged from 1001 to 1100 , which were originally show cars. They also had cars in branches that could have had serial numbers between 1101 and 1400. and cars still at the factory which could have had serial numbers between 1401 and 1525. Not all of the included serial numbered 810 cars would have been renumbered as some of them were already sold. As Josh stated, all 812 cars with serial numbers below 1526 were in fact renumbered 810s. Also the 812 serial number only matched the 810 number on cars that were originally show cars. The new 812 serial numbers were not necessarily between 1401 and 1525, but could have been anywhere between 1001 and 1525. For instance I own 812 1186H and it is a renumbered 810.
Using the way I read the engineering change and Josh's appendix, 812 1500A has to be a renumbered 810 because 1500 is less than 1526. Then again, I'm no spring chicken either.
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  • Terry Cockerell
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19 May 2021 22:18 #43214 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Interior re-trim .
Jack the new owner of 812 1500A has been in contact with Ron Irwin and Randy Ema to confirm the provenance of the car. It was originally owned by Edna Cord, EL's sister. The car is in southern Queensland which is 500 miles from where I live. I will email the owner to see if he can decipher the frame number.

T cockerell
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19 May 2021 04:02 #43208 by mikespeed35
Replied by mikespeed35 on topic Interior re-trim .
Advanced age brings wisdom Jack.
CORDiallyMike

Mike Huffman
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19 May 2021 02:08 #43206 by Jonathan Richards
Replied by Jonathan Richards on topic Interior re-trim .
I would like to comment on posts to this thread "Interior re-trim" // Recent Topics // Cord 810/812 by PNP Tim Gilmartin , Australian "Spark Plug" Terry Cockerell and others. Mr. Gilmartin's post #43186 above provides serial number change data from Ron Irwin's files. Similar confirming data is to be found at Page 23 of the notebook reprint CORD ENGINEERING CHANGES (available at the ACD Auto Museum store). When the 9-9-1936 decision was made to "upgrade" certain unsold 1936 Cord Models 810 to 1937 Cord Models 812 specific vehicles were identified. Model 810s with serial numbers 1401 to 1525 inclusive , Production cars in Factory , were thus upgraded. The originally Geneva Blue w/ blue interior car of John McCall S#810/1500A is a fairly early Model 810 and appears to fall outside of the cars on which numbers were changed. It is a true Model 810. The unique Cord Model 812/1500A of Forum Contributor "[email protected]" Mr. Cockerell reports is now in Australia. It could well be a former Model 810 "upgraded" to a Model 812. Perhaps Terry Cockerell and other "Down Under" club members can arrange to decipher the serial number stamped on the right side rail of the stub frame. It will likely read "500" or, as seems more likely it will be a four digit number giving us the original serial number of the car when built as a Model 810. The reported Engine #FB2012 and CMC Body # C90 1375 indicates a much later production than John McCall's car. I will welcome your comments to correct any errors of logic which I can blame on my advanced age of 84 years. Best Regards to you all, Jack Richards #1080 in Missouri. P.S. - Perhaps Mr. Cockerell can forward to Ron Irwin the current ownership and date of purchase by his friend who supplied the great pictures of 812/1500A. It certainly appears to have an original interior, jr.

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  • Tim Gilmartin
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17 May 2021 20:15 #43186 by Tim Gilmartin
Replied by Tim Gilmartin on topic Interior re-trim .
John: the first real 812 would be 1526 A. Numbers 1406A thru 1510A were renumbered 810s. All this from Ron Irwin’s files.
Tim.
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17 May 2021 05:42 - 17 May 2021 05:44 #43180 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Interior re-trim .
Hi John, yes it appears that the numbers started again with the prefix 812. They are all laid out in the back of Josh Malks's books. I figured the lists in Cord Complete had been updated compared to those in The Timeless Classic.
It is most unfortunate that Rick Hulett's discoveries and files are not included within the current Judging Standards. The standards accept variations in trim colours and materials but not paint. Gordon Buehrig told members at various meets that special paint was on offer at extra cost. Folk Law says the same in Connersville. Custom built Cords could be made to order at the Factory which was a vast complex, so why not special paint to order at extra cost?
The Judging Standards should cover what did come out of the Factory and not dismiss variants.

T cockerell
Last edit: 17 May 2021 05:44 by Terry Cockerell. Reason: Spelling Error
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17 May 2021 03:01 #43179 by john mccall
Replied by john mccall on topic Interior re-trim .
Terry,
Not a mistake on your part. When I saw the 812 for sale recently I said to myself, did they really start the numbering system over again for the 812's?
That really creates questions when registering a car as the serial number is usually the identifying number. Model numbers and names less important. It is not necessarily the most logical thing to do. Of course re-numbering 810's as an 812 wouldn't fly these days either.
I think the info in Ron's file is what i gave him years ago. The car came out of Canada as a stripped basket case. Someone had started to restore it and then apparently decided to use some of the parts for a different project.
I don't disagree that there were variations from the factory color and trim book. If you are restoring a car, the way you want it to look, that's fine. If you are going to show that car, you usually will need documentation if it doesn't meet the the normal accepted standards.
Rick had a lot of pics of stuff on original cars that wouldn't float with today's judging. Unfortunately re-discoverying that info will probably never happen.
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16 May 2021 21:53 #43177 by mikespeed35
Replied by mikespeed35 on topic Interior re-trim .
I think this is common with trimmers. I found similar info. on the back of a kick panel on my Marmon. I just put new bearings and bushings in a 1913 trans. and left my info. on the inside cover.
CORDiallyMike

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  • Terry Cockerell
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16 May 2021 20:53 #43175 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Interior re-trim .
Trevor, your are becoming your own auto-detective. It is amazing what you can find when you start digging. In an old ACD Club newsletter there was an article on the discovery of names and addresses written on the back of an original door trim panel of the people who did the work in the Factory in Connersville when the car was built. I had a look in Street View at the addresses, simple unadorned workers cottages just as they were back in the 1930s.

T cockerell

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  • Tim Gilmartin
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16 May 2021 19:25 #43174 by Tim Gilmartin
Replied by Tim Gilmartin on topic Interior re-trim .
Terry: John’s car, 810 1500A, is in Ron Irwin’s master list. It is a known car.
Tim.

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16 May 2021 15:43 #43172 by [email protected]
I contacted Larry, was owned by a Richard Barber and was Burgundy then, just as I suspected.

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16 May 2021 15:16 #43171 by [email protected]
My trimmer unearthed this from the back of the front seat, dated 2 days after my 11th birthday, I think it's about time the interior had a re-fresh !
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  • Terry Cockerell
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16 May 2021 07:18 #43168 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Interior re-trim .
John, you must excuse my mistake simply because 810 1500 A is not listed in The Timeless Classic or Cord Complete and you only said 1500 A.
Have you let Ron Irwin know about this "unknown Cord"?
The ACD Club Judges accept that interior variations could be ordered at extra cost from the Factory but not special paint. Rick Hulett documented numerous original cars with trim variations.

T cockerell

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16 May 2021 02:48 #43167 by john mccall
Replied by john mccall on topic Interior re-trim .
810 1500A is a plain West Chester that is sitting in my barn and it has the characteristics that I previously noted with the original door panels still hanging in place.
To repeat, maroon cars per the paint book did not come from the factory with maroon interiors. but with a tan interior. Tan cars came with a maroon interior.
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15 May 2021 21:32 - 15 May 2021 21:34 #43164 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Interior re-trim .
John the Westchester with Serial No 812 1500A is a unique Cord that was originally owned by Edna Cord, El's sister. It has a bolt on Factory accessory trunk plus a pleated leather interior. Attached are some pictures. It is now in Australia.

T cockerell
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Last edit: 15 May 2021 21:34 by Terry Cockerell. Reason: Adding pictures
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15 May 2021 18:31 - 15 May 2021 18:34 #43163 by [email protected]
Thanks Terry, that is what we are going to do, bit of swishness. Think the body colour piping will look great with the maroon. I still think my car was maroon originally , the tan colour seems to add up, and little microscopic maroon clues here and there I have found too.
Last edit: 15 May 2021 18:34 by [email protected].

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  • john mccall
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15 May 2021 02:29 #43161 by john mccall
Replied by john mccall on topic Interior re-trim .
Westchester 1500A was a black or dark blue car from the factory with a blue pleated interior.. The paint and upholstery book indicates that a geneva blue car would have a dark blue broadcloth interior.

What color was your car originally? The paint and color book says a palm beach tan or black car would have a deep maroon broadcloth interior., combinations 30 and 32 respectively.
The paint book has rich maroon, thrush brown and clay rust external colors with a light tan broadcloth interior, combinations34,41 and 42..

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  • Terry Cockerell
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15 May 2021 00:12 - 15 May 2021 00:13 #43158 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Interior re-trim .
Hello again Trevor. Attached is a picture of pleated door trim panels that came from Rick Hulett the Cord upholstery Guru.

T cockerell
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Last edit: 15 May 2021 00:13 by Terry Cockerell. Reason: Adding picture.

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14 May 2021 18:42 #43153 by [email protected]
I still haven't got to the bottom of the original colour, my hunch is burgundy but I don't know.

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14 May 2021 14:32 #43152 by johnmereness
Replied by johnmereness on topic Interior re-trim .
Probably a hair (tiny bit) more "plump" in the pleat, - you would be looking to places on the seats that were not "sat on" such as faces of seats or upper rear backrests and .... - yes, a lot of authenticity has been lost to people "not following factory instructions/guidelines/patterns".

JMM

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13 May 2021 21:48 #43143 by uconn_1965
Replied by uconn_1965 on topic Interior re-trim .
Looks like the original seats might be fawn beige which would be correct if the Cord started out life as a black car.
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13 May 2021 21:42 #43142 by 1748 S
Replied by 1748 S on topic Interior re-trim .
My guess is thats NOT the original color for your car but.... More needs to be looked at to be sure. Interesting find for sure...


Gary Parsons

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13 May 2021 20:25 #43141 by [email protected]
I sent my car to my trimmer for what was going to be a new carpet and a few little jobs, however, we decided that the door panels left a little to be desired and the seat coverings were not fantastic. So it's a new interior then ! When Joe removed the seat covering we found this underneath, I presume it is the original cloth, do the pleats look correct as my seats the pleats were more raised, we will cover the door panels to match as before they were flat.
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