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Starting Phaeton restoration.

  • 1748 S
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14 Nov 2020 22:34 #41510 by 1748 S
Replied by 1748 S on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
Thanks John and Cliff. Couldn't say it better. I trust my work to be correct. So I can depend on learning BEFORE I restore or rebuild anything on my 37 Beverly. I ask questions of many more knowledgeable than me. Then compile the data. Then decide how far and how much I'm willing to pay in time n money for the result I desire. I know most every "restored Cord" today is far better than the day it left the assembly line or showroom floor. So have called it over restored. I call it ... "AS CLOSE TO 1000 POINTS CAR"


Gary Parsons

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14 Nov 2020 16:45 #41508 by uconn_1965
Replied by uconn_1965 on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
Restoring a Cord today, either standard or supercharged is five times harder than it was 25 or 30 years ago. Back then there was still plenty of original NOS parts available from the pickle factory. In additional quality parts were being provided via Jim Howell who passed away quite a few years ago. There also were many club members who took up projects reproducing parts. In addition radiator shops, chrome shops, small machine shops were plentiful and most were able to help you out. You could go to your local jobber and still find replacement parts for your cord. Try that today at your local auto parts store and they’ll give you a strange stare.
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  • johnmereness
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14 Nov 2020 16:25 #41505 by johnmereness
Replied by johnmereness on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
If supercharging is so great then why are there so few successful toured with (not for lack of number of existing cars as there are plenty - and same goes with Auburns too) ?

Answer Possibly: In an Auburn it tends to be that the bulk of the cars were driven hard and put away wet to begin with and prove challenging to properly restore matched to few cars finding "that level of restoration" and/or owners truly committed to them or even owners with a driveability mindset.

Every time I spoke to Don Wholend about an S/C car his reply was an ARGH and a beat yourself senseless in another way. The flip side of the coin was he also said I was perfectly capable and when I get it right I would be rewarded with a lovely driving car (and if ever sold a great price upon sale). My opinion is most people are not up to what I see the successful driving people have in skill sets and ....

Supercharging is just a lot of really expensive parts and a lot of really expensive extra parts spinning around at great rates of speed matched to most people not properly spending the money to get it right the first time, sort it thereafter, and then maintain it.

So, the first time I asked to drive a Cord I found a few key people at ACD Festival and they huddled and arranged for X car - said I would not find a more fine one on globe. We drove and it was impressive. The owner apologized the whole way for all its current faults and said they had spent weeks on it prior to ACD Festival and just ran out of time so they trailered it instead of driving and .... My opinion is that this is fairly normal (by the way, we drove around for 2 years without first gear in the Auburn - stuff happens, we were busy, and I apologize for my cars faults too). I am doing a low mileage well enough kept 852 Phaeton now and I can tell you that no matter how much time, thought, money, and ... has been spent on it I expect 2 years of sorting it out to reach the level of the 851 Phaeton you see us with all the time (which by the way probably has about 80K invested in its drive-train dependability over the last 45 years).

And, I can take you to see plenty of Cords here in Cincinnati that look really pretty in the garage.

I am still sticking to "finest cars made for driving pre-1953." It is just a level of commitment, dedication, skill set(s), wallets, and ....

JMM
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13 Nov 2020 01:44 #41491 by 1748 S
Replied by 1748 S on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
No eBay APP ID and/or Cert ID defined in Kunena configurationHeres what I found on ebay
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13 Nov 2020 01:41 #41490 by 1748 S
Replied by 1748 S on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
I'm NOT an expert on the superchargers but... I believe the issue is the clutch wears out. The impeller spins 6 times engine rpm and MUST have a clutch that can slip when you run high rpm and ask for a shift to another gear. All this spinning enertia needs to go somewhere so "things" don't break or gears strip teeth. The "clutch" is tight metal rollers contacting a central shaft. I believe Ron Monte has one for sale on ebay in the Auburn section. Its an interesting design for 1930S...


Gary Parsons
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13 Nov 2020 00:44 #41489 by alsancle
Replied by alsancle on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
John,
What exactly is the issue with an SC car over a regular one? I asked my dad if he had all the components in his blower and he got mad at me like it was a stupid question. His car has about 7k miles on it since it was restored in the mid 60s, most of those miles in the first 10 years, but it never broke down. Two trips from Boston to Auburn down I80.
Attachments:
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12 Nov 2020 08:33 #41483 by johnmereness
Replied by johnmereness on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
By the way, do not get me wrong: I think a Cord with or without supercharger can be the finest running/driving cars made pre-1953-ish or so - I just think the restoration work quality needed and the maintenance needed thereafter is only in the capable hands of a very small number of people though (ie. most people are not up to the task).

JMM

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12 Nov 2020 08:20 #41480 by johnmereness
Replied by johnmereness on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
This may be the separation point: My 1941 Cadillac was fairly easy to maintain and I drove it 80K miles with not all that much expense. That said, I would tell you the other 1930's cars cost Dad and I about 15K to 20K each in "EXTRA" maintenance for roughly every 10K miles we drive (and I am not one to throw money around or pay absorbent shop rates) - if we would use the car like most other's use their cars I would say that 15K-20K would be more like 2.5K tops over the same length of time (ie. without the miles though).

JMM

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12 Nov 2020 08:11 #41479 by johnmereness
Replied by johnmereness on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
Mike, you are the only truly successful S/C Auburn owner that I am aware of. There are a handful of others who have done the work and their cars may or may not be truly roadworthy, And there are a lot of people that I would say their car capable of local driving. And there are a group that claim their cars are, but ....

As to 851/852 cars, there are only a "slim" handful that have 10K, 20K, 30K, 40K, or 40K plus miles on the clock post restoration and that are always continually worked on to keep them roadworthy to basically do any sort of driving and at any time (Mike has one of those cars, we have one of those cars, and ....).

Don Wholend restored my Auburn and put almost 40K miles on it touring and Don also had a Supercharged Sportsman (which he drove the same way) and I do not recall him saying many kind words about supercharging other than he was happy with the sale price. Every time I looked at an S/C car he was quick to say to gut it out and restore it for the bench to reinstall everything when it comes time to sell.

I do give Brad credit for driving his Sportsman, though in 2019, it came to ACD Festival on a trailer for whatever reason.

JMM

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03 Nov 2020 05:23 #41395 by mikespeed35
Replied by mikespeed35 on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
While not a Cord. I have put many miles' on a supercharged Auburn with no reliability problems.
CORDiallyMike

Mike Huffman

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03 Nov 2020 00:12 #41387 by E L
Replied by E L on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
Hello ,
may be able to help with pictures and parts.
[email protected]

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02 Nov 2020 21:37 #41386 by rhauser
Replied by rhauser on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
Thanks for all the replies and trying to make me rethink my current situation. With that said I am glad there were a few post that said a SC engine can be reliable. Here is my situation at the moment. the parts I purchased from Detroit came with a SC block that has been sleeved and the water jacket repaired by stone barn. It has the crank with new bearing, Cam with new bearing, Fly wheel, both pulleys at the ends, rods with new bearing, SC intake with impeller and carb, and the generator. It also has new lifters that have been ground. It is missing some of the internals such as the rods that holds the lifters in but I have all of that with spacers and springs between, on my current engine. It does not have the gears for the oil pump or distributor but again I have all that in my engine. I also have the distributor that can be set up for the SC engine. The one thing I haven't found is what runs the impeller off the cam. I need to find out how that works and what I am missing and can it be found or reproduced to make everything work. If someone has a diagram of that portion of the SC or a cut away of SC engine I would be very happy to see it. I haven't started anything major at this time but will be working on it soon and through the winter.

Robert Hauser

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01 Nov 2020 22:11 #41380 by alsancle
Replied by alsancle on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
I have two long distance awards my dad won back in the 60s with his Conv Coupe. He restored the car and the blower is not gutted. Boston to Auburn and back twice with no problems. It has also done at least one Caravan without issue. So it is certainly possible to reliably drive a blown car.

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01 Nov 2020 22:05 #41377 by JIM.OBRIEN
Replied by JIM.OBRIEN on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
Gary, There are a lot more of those "gutted" superchargers out there then most people realize. The gas mileage does go down considerably when they are gutted. Bob McEwan used to get 12 MPG with his Cord while I was getting 17 MPG driving my cord right behind him.

I have to agree with Jack, a S/C Cord can be a good tour car. It has to be restored and sorted out properly (like any other Cord). Brad has driven his S/C Cabriolet from OK to Auburn many times as well as many others.

John is right that many owners don't drive them any more on the open road and as a result they don't work as well as they should. For many the supercharger is just a very expensive "pretty" item on the Cord. It is expensive to rebuild, expensive when something goes wrong and is one more thing to deal with, all for the sake of outside exhaust pipes. There are a lot of Cords out there that have superchargers that haven't given the owners any problems.
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  • Jonathan Richards
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01 Nov 2020 17:50 #41372 by Jonathan Richards
Replied by Jonathan Richards on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
I must respectfully disagree with member and frequent excellent contributor John Mereness' assertion that supercharged Cord Models 812 are "not really a great tour car". Some time ago I had the pleasure and privilege to own and drive a 1937 Cord Supercharged Beverly S#32410S. Although not a perfect example it was sufficiently reliable to be driven twice to Auburn, Indiana from St. Louis, Missouri ( about 800 miles roundtrip ) and from St. Louis to my former home town of Red Oak, Iowa (another 800 miles roundtrip ). I might also add that when I purchased the car sight unseen on BringATrailer I drove the car from Sedona , Arizona to St. Louis , Missouri in 3 1/2 days ( a distance of almost 1500 miles ) with a leaking left front tire as the only problem ( other than as total tightness of sphincter as I wondered what would or could go wrong ). I realize there are many Cord 810/812 owners who bring their machines to meets via trailer. The treasured cars are a priceless investment to be protected and preserved. There was a time, not so long ago , when some of us fools enjoyed the cars as they were intended to be used , driving down the highway. My mind goes to the wonderful image of the rear of a Cord sedan driving toward the horizon which Josh Malks reproduced long ago. As the old saying goes , " Everyone to their own taste", said the old lady , as she kissed her cow. Carry on, Jack Richards in Missouri.

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01 Nov 2020 03:11 #41368 by 1748 S
Replied by 1748 S on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
I know of a member that got a GREAT DEAL on a supercharged Cord. It was terrible to drive on the streets in stop n go traffic but... On freeway driving it was fine. It turns out his GREAT DEAL WAS BECAUSE THE SUPERCHARGER WAS GUTTED. City driving the fuel would drop out of the air fuel mix and puddle causing a over rich fuel intake. So always do a good investigation before purchase. When you "find" a rebuilt supercharger its going to cost nearly $25,000.00. Just the Stromberg AA25 carburator will cost $2500.00 too.
Restoring these cars can be such an interesting adventure


Gary Parsons

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31 Oct 2020 19:37 #41365 by johnmereness
Replied by johnmereness on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
Whatever the serial number on the cowl says then that is what you want - if originally an S/C car then put in an S/C engine and is originally a non-S/C car then go with the standard engine. As to S/C exhaust on a non-S/C car - have at it and enjoy.

There are good reason why a supercharge rebuild are 20K +

And, I see very few S/C cars successfully toured with (like in really driven any distance for any time). There are great people that tell you at ACD meets that their cars are runners - well ,they trailer them to and from Auburn and put 75 miles on them once a week each year - that is not really a great tour car. I for example drive to and from Auburn and clock in at just over 700 miles for a week of driving (and we put on another 500 to 1000 per year - just depends). I do not mind S/C cars but realize they give people fits in restoration and driveability. The fellow who restored my car drove his Sportman from Washington to Auburn - he just really never mentioned his guts of his S/C were empty - he reinstalled everything to sell (and it set a record price).

JMM
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  • Terry Cockerell
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31 Oct 2020 00:30 #41355 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
Reliability is certainly desirable. I have driven my 810 sedan on a few 1,300 mile round trips here in Australia without any problems. A lot of work had to be done to get it into that condition. I covered around 10,000 miles in 5 years then decided to completely restore it properly.
One advantage to having the supercharged exhaust system on a standard engine is that it helps to keep things cooler under the hood as the hot air can pass through the screens.
A fan shroud is also desirable for heavy traffic conditions ........... good insurance on the investment.

T cockerell
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30 Oct 2020 20:14 #41348 by rhauser
Replied by rhauser on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
I am grateful for the comments and advice but I'm not even sure that it is the original engine in the car. The serial plate list the engine as FC3227 and the engine in the car is a FB number. As for whether it increases the value or hurts doesn't really matter to me because it more than likely won't be for sale in the 20 or so years. Hine sight is 20/20 but who can say what any of these cars are worth 20 years from now when they get out lawed to be on the highway. LOL

Now reliability is something that I am interested in. I do plan to drive this car and not just Sunday drives or as a daily driver but I do plan to enjoy it and put some miles on it. I would even drive it to Auburn for the meet when it gets done, which is just over 300 miles for me. I would hope that if done correctly this car will preform as good as any car its age and be able to travel reasonable distance without major hiccups every time. I have been flat bedded home a few times even when it was running. LOL Sometimes the journey is better than the trip. I have always relied on the kindness of strangers. :)

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30 Oct 2020 17:28 - 30 Oct 2020 17:31 #41346 by johnmereness
Replied by johnmereness on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
"At the time it was checked out in Auburn the gentlemen checking said it would be easy to convert this car to a SC car because of the items I mentioned. Also at the time he verified it as an original Cord."

Opinion = Possibly really bad advice !!!

JMM
Last edit: 30 Oct 2020 17:31 by johnmereness.
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30 Oct 2020 17:24 #41345 by johnmereness
Replied by johnmereness on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
AGREED: IF THE CAR WAS UNSUPERCHARGED WHEN IT LEFT THE FACTORY THEN LEAVE IT THAT WAY !!! It use to be the cars were worth more money - now the cars get a thumbs down and a nose snub. Supercharging is also incredibly difficult to rebuild and maintain and I know very few supercharged cars that are successful tour cars. Basically, supercharging sounds really neat, but has serious downsides.

The aforementioned said: If you like the external pipes then install the pipes (that still seems to be an acceptable compromise).

JMM
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29 Oct 2020 17:27 #41330 by JIM.OBRIEN
Replied by JIM.OBRIEN on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
Paul Bryant was the one who would have checked the car in Auburn. I can help you straighten out the serial numbers on the car. PM me or email me, my info is in the directory.
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29 Oct 2020 16:33 #41329 by rhauser
Replied by rhauser on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
History of the car as I know it. My father bought the car in 1987 form doctor Smith in Ohio. It was verified then that the engine had been rebuilt 2 yrs before and the car only had 2500 miles since then. the cost then was about $30,000. The Transmission had been done 10 years before that in Toronto. The tranny has always worked fine except for some electrical issues that were cleared up when I installed a new harness from Howell in 96. In 97 I drove the car from Pgh to Auburn for the annual meet, top down all the way. While I was there I had the member from the club (I think he was a professor at Indiana University) go over the car to verify it is an original Cord. At the time he told me the serial number plate had the wrong serial number and that the number was for a custom Beverly. The number is 310258S. Our title has that serial number and says 37 Cord Phaeton. He then checked the frame and said the frame number was 1441 or 1442 I can't remember but I can check it. He told me that the serial number should be PH1441. This is something I hope to get cleared up in the future during the restoration.

After Auburn I drove to Hershey for the AACA meet and on the trip I noticed a tick in the engine so when I got home I decided to start a restoration on the car. A piston towards the fire wall had cracked and scored the wall so I knew I needed to redo the engine at that time I figured I would do a complete restoration. I tore into it but at the time with 3 kids and other matters it stalled and just sat. I now have the time and money to get back to it.

Particulars about the car: It was converted to 12 volt at some point. I think it was done when the engine was rebuilt. The car has the cut out for the emergency brake cable in the rear and not the notch but it has benedict's brakes. This indicates that it is a 36 body but it has a lot of 37 parts on it. It has the outside exhaust and the 150 MPH speedo. At the time it was checked out in Auburn the gentlemen checking said it would be easy to convert this car to a SC car because of the items I mentioned. Also at the time he verified it as an original Cord.

Side Note: when my father past he had 6 Conv that were divided between my 2 brothers and myself. 37 Cord Phaeton, 49 Cadi Conv, 60 Eldorado Conv, 61 T-Bird Conv, 68 Imperial Conv, and 77 Mercedes 450SL conv. I have the Cord and the Imperial. Also if any body is interested the 61 T-bird is for sale. It is all original and a real nice survivor, it is listed in Hemmings and the AACA web site.

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28 Oct 2020 20:57 - 28 Oct 2020 21:05 #41325 by 1748 S
Replied by 1748 S on topic Starting Phaeton restoration.
Welcome to the fun of Cord Restoration. This is the best place for correct information too. Please tell the forum what the car actually is. Try NOT to change a non supercharged car into a supercharged car. It will loose value doing so. Pick a color that is correct for this car too. Same with interior color and material. I believe every convertible had leather interior but may be not sure. I know sedans came both leather and cloth. But once again for a little more money you could get "what you wanted" from the factory.
Many times if you post the car serial numbers and the rest of the identification tag information this forum can tell you all kinds of history on your car.Its amazing to learn things too about who owned you r car in the distant past.
One final note. Do not throw anything away during restoration. Just a simple radiator cap is about $300.00 today.... If you can find one. And most owners have no idea our caps seal internally unlike modern day caps seal on the outside of the neck. Personally I like to take pictures of everything before and as I'm restoring anything on my Cord. I'm a retired machinist and learned to document everything as found and as left when done.
As for value of parts or complete engines usually its much more profitable selling by piece. I would be interested in the lot of parts you purchased in Detroit. If you want we can email each other as to what I need or what you might be willing to sell or trade for some of my extra parts. Hopefully you have the original Autolite generator GCO4804-A. If not you looking at around $2700.00 and up from there.... I have a huge shop book of every Autolite generator from nearly every car from the teens to about the late 1950s.... So If I have the numbers I can at least tell you what it came from.


Gary Parsons
Last edit: 28 Oct 2020 21:05 by 1748 S.

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28 Oct 2020 19:39 #41324 by rhauser
Starting Phaeton restoration. was created by rhauser
I am stating to restore a 37 Phaeton that I tore apart in 1997 after driving to auburn and Hershey meets that year. I just bought the lot of parts that was in Detroit two months ago. it came with a super charged engine and a lot of other parts. I am going to use that super charged engine in the car. I have a Non super charged engine that is mostly there and needs some work plus I have the tranny that was running when I parked the car. I was wondering what they might be worth on the market when I go to sell them? is it better to sell as one unit or break them up.? since I'm going to do a lot by myself I know I will need a lot of information from every body on the forum. Thanks in advance.

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