Voltage Regulator Issues?

It appears the car is a right hand drive and those are the mounts for the heater. See the hoses along the cowl brace.
I do believe the straps should be on the inside however

Hi Craig.
Glad to hear you have sorted out your electrical problems.
I have a question for you.
What are the four bolts and two metal straps supporting on the firewall?
The are located above the steering column .

Thanks to all who have contributed to this discussion. I was able to find and purchase the recommended Autolite VRB/622P voltage regulator. It is installed, and it solved the problem. I now have +10 to 15A with the engine running. When I began, it was running at -10A.

I appreciate the advice and help available on this forum!

Craig

Thanks! I thought only Chrysler products had that for awhile - I got boxes of club newsletters back to '82, but no owners manual or other info on it, and my oldest other car was a '38 Traction Avant roadster with neg grnd.
Ken

The Cord is positive ground. Always has been this way. No idea why someone would change yours.


Gary Parsons

I'm new to Cords, but mine is set up as neg ground - so noting Uconn's comment above, is the car supposed to be positive ground? I don't have my manual yet -
Ken

My first acquaintance with the Startix system was a couple yrs ago when Steve Moore in our C&C bunch in Mountain Vu Ca. mentioned the system on his gorgeous boattail Auburn roadster was going intermittent and grinding his ring gear at odd times. He'd taken his gen to a San Jose gen/alt shop and that hadn't helped a bit - grinding continued after they supposedly fixed it. I offered to take a look at it, found it was a 3 brush gen - the third one being moveable to adjust output voltage, which I'd never seen before - and noticed one brush spring was applying a sideways load to the brush, jamming it in its holder - it wasn't forcing the brush straight down into constant contact with the commutator. Not only that, but I measured the commutator as being .005 in. out of round, which caused intermittent contact bounce with the poorly mounted brush - the brush was arcing at the low spot on the comm, leaving clear burn marks which for some reason the alt shop hadn't noticed. I didn't have a lathe then to true the comm, but found a new brush spring in the bits Steve gave me to work with, installed it, angled it to push directly down on the brush, made sure the brush was free to move, and after polishing the comm with my Scotchbrite wheel on my grinder, made sure the comm segments gaps were undercut, and re-assembled it. Steve reinstalled it and that eliminated the problem. The intermittent output of the gen was triggering the Startix due to the varying voltage output. The system is only supposed to work when the engine dies, gen output drops to the value to trigger the startix, which restarts the eng automatically - hopefully, and the car is back running consistently. I still don't see why this worked, because if the engine dies in the first place, what's the cause, and how can it start again if it can't stay running? Not having been a driver back then, I just don't understand why that system ever worked, but then probably that's why the Startix system disappeared.
Ken

Many good diagnostic suggestions from forum members... thank you! Ongoing work and testing still shows good output from the generator (7+V) but only 6.0 volts going from the voltage regulator to the battery. So the car and battery do fine unless I run the lights or heater, then the battery slowly dies.

Uconn_1965... you suggested calling Rich at DJ's Alternator in Connecticut about possibly repairing/refurbishing this regulator. I called them, but unfortunately, Rich has retired. Here's a picture of the regulator guts. Does anyone have ideas about who else might have the skills and knowledge to adjust some part of this to increase the voltage output going to the battery? Any other good sources besides DJ's Alternator?

Thank you!

Correction - I went back to ebay to look at the Autolite VRV-4002D and that appears to be 24 volts—- you need a 6 volt regulator.

From your first post, it looks like you had the correct voltage regulator but regulators for Cords are very rare and if you can find one, costly. If you are interested in driving your Cord and not obsessed with judging, there are some replacement regulators that would work. You need a positive ground, 4 terminal, preferably 28 amps to work. With further investigation, there are a couple on EBay now that might work. If you search on eBay autolite VRV-4002 A (30 amp) or Autolite VRB/622P (22 amp). What ever regulator you put on will need to be sync or polarized with the generator. You can also call Rich at DJ’s alternator and starter in Harwinton Ct. 860-485-1384 and ask him if he can refurbish your original regulator. He has done some work for me and I can recommend him. Hope this helps.

You can substitute many other voltage regulators for this car but.... There are ONLY two known correct regulators that pass muster in judging. The VRB4008C high base 4 bolt mount. And the VRB4002D. This second number is not a certain number to my memory but the 4008C is. I actually saw this listed in the ACD inventory books of 1937. I have a posting on this forum showing the correct Autolite generators and voltage regulators for the 36 and 37 cars.


Gary Parsons

At this point, I'm still thinking my voltage regulator is the main problem. Is there a good source for correct replacement regulators, or a source for rebuilding? Thanks for all the help!

The wire to the coil will show a draw if the points are closed. If the motor is turned over the draw should fluctuate as the coil is de-energized and energized.

The black wire on the right is connected to the fuel pump. It draws ~5 amps. The bright yellow wire on the right goes to the coil. It also draws ~5 amps as soon as I turn the key on. Should the coil draw amps with the key on and the motor off?

Also, if it turns out the voltage regulator is suspect, what's a good source for a voltage regulator? Rebuild or replace?

I might add that your ignition switch is not original. What wire connects your ignition switch to the coil?

Yellow with black tracer goes from amp meter (charge) to ignition switch B. Green goes from ignition switch to clutch switch and black from ignition switch to fuel-oil gauge. Looks like you have a couple of extra wires that need to be traced that don’t appear to be original.

I had the Optima battery tested... it load tested good. So I don't think that the battery is a contributing factor.

I also dissembled the ignition switch. I found that the bright yellow wire on the right is the wire with the 4 amp draw. I haven't worked to trace it yet... does any know what it's connected to? Thanks again for helping me with this.

Craig

could it possibly be the regulator was not polarized after install? just a long shot...

Mike, You are correct, Josh did have the alternator built into the generator. I think he did this after the generator failed on an early trip from California to Auburn.
Jim

OK now your answers make a little more sense. It sounds like the previous owner had issues with the charging so this isn't something new. I am concerned there is a 4 amp draw with nothing running and the electric fuel pump disconnected. Since you are only getting the draw when the ignition switch is on the ON position (not on ACC) this really limits the possibilities.

If I remember correctly the ON position only has the clutch switch on it, there may be others wires depending on how someone wired the car. Try removing this wire and see if the 4 amp draw goes away. It should be a green 12 gauge wire. If there are several wires remove them all until the 4 amp draw goes away. then put them back one by one and see where the draw is.

The more I think about it you may still have a problem with the voltage regulator since even with a 10 amp draw the generator should be able to charge your battery.

Answering questions and correcting my reporting errors:

1) Key on, motor off: -10 amps
2) Key on, motor running: - 10 amps
3) ACC on: 0 amps (motor off)
4) Key on, fuel pump disconnected, motor off: -4 amps
5) Ken on, fuel pump disconnected, motor running: -4 amps

Following restoration in about 1990, car was run/driven alot by PO, so the car has run well in it's past. That would lead me to think that it's properly wired... but not opposed to verifying that as needed. The PO seemed to be honest about the car's strengths issues... I'm currently working through the issues (including shifting... mostly resolved). The only comment about the charging system was... "charge it up once in a while". Not sure what all he meant in that comment.

The fuel pump is definitely drawing amps... with the motor off and motor on. I could disconnect the fuel pump and drive the car abit. But the ammeter still indicates negative even when it's disconnected, so I still feel like I'm not getting the right amount of voltage produced.

I took a picture of wires of the generator feed wire and whether it's touching the brush weather cover... did I get the right view? If I'm looking at the right thing, it looks like a good connection with no grounding.

I'll work to verify good grounding of both the voltage regulator and the generator.

The car has an Optima battery that looks fairly new. I believe it's good, but I have a another brand new Optima battery (that I purchased two weeks ago to have as a backup I carried with me for the excursion last weekend.) I'll can put that battery in.

Jim has made some great suggestions. Things I was thinking but felt they were not important. But they sure are. The fuel pump draw is kind of high. The battery "should" not drain down like that as fast as you mentioned if its in good repair, water full up and not sulfate up the plates. As for incorrectly wired... Thats a big IF.... A person with close knowledge of the correct wiring will have to look it offer. You might get a wire schematic to trace the wires but... They are in a fabric loom. Not you can see the size n color on each wire connection too.


Gary Parsons

Hi Jim, Didn't Josh have a alternator built into his gen?
CORDiallyMike

OK so first problem is the electric fuel pump. That should not be drawing 6 amps.
For your answers to Number 4 - is the engine running at this time? I'm guessing it is since answer #1 says no current draw without the engine running.

You said you had your generator checked out and it is working properly. I guess the first question is since the car is new to you and we don't know the history on it has it been doing this since you got it? If so first I would check out the wiring between the generator and the voltage regulator - make sure someone didn't wire it incorrectly. Also is there a good ground on both the generator and the voltage regulator. Next would be check the voltage regulator to make sure that is working properly.

If your battery is at 6.04 volts it is not fully charged and is not getting charged when you are running.

The other dumb question is the battery good? Have you tested it? What type of battery is it? I just reread your answers and you say the battery dies quickly with the heater or lights on - that shouldn't happen. Josh drove his Cord across the country when his generator died. He charged it up every night and was able to run all day including several starts and a couple of hours into the night with the lights. Check the battery!

Thank you for the generator picture. It appears to be a correct for this car GCO4804A Autolite generator. Only by looking closely at the end plate cast in part numbers can a person be absolutely sure. BTW the brush plate end will have the part number GBW63 cast into it. So lets say its correct. I noticed the large feed wire appears to be touching the metal weather cover to the brushes. Picture is not clear enough to see that side. But check and see if it might be grounding there.
Gary Parsons

Answers to your good questions:
1) No amps drawn when key on, motor off
2) No amps drawn when ACC on, motor off
3) Car runs strong, so no apparent issues with spark.
4) Electric fuel pump runs when key turned on, ammeter shows -10 amps. I disconnected the fuel pump, then when the key is turned on it shows -4 ams. So the fuel pump is a constant significant draw.

I haven't run it that much, but the battery only seems to die when I have run lights or heater, the big draws. I ran it for two hours a week ago (no lights or heater) and even though it showed negative amps all the while, the battery still has 6.04 amps and I haven't put a charger on it. If I do run lights or heater, the battery dies in a hurry.

I had a mechanic check the generator, and he told me it's putting out good voltage. But he said the voltage isn't getting past the regulator (if I understood him correctly).

Attached is picture of the generator.

Thank you all for the input and discussion.

First of all this thread should be about helping a member with his problem and we should not be hijacking it off topic.

Second the generator and voltage regulator is not a S/C thing - it is a early vs late. As most things on the Cord it changed over the production at least once, if not two or three times. The early Cords had the three brush generator with the cutout mounted on it. The later Cords (BOTH STANDARD AND S/C ) had the larger generator with the voltage regulator mounted on the firewall. It is very possible even probable they used more then one voltage regulator during the final days of production.

Asking what is on someone's car now will only tell you you what they have on there now, not 85 years ago when the car rolled out of the factory. These are parts that wear out and have been changed over time. People installed what was available, what they had or what worked. Plus for the show cars people put a tag on it and stamped the numbers they felt the judges were looking for.

Also what is listed in the Autolite book or the Motors book are useful guides and indicate what will work but not necessarily what came on the car. For various reasons the lists have changed over time. I have found some of the books give different number in different additions and in some cases are wrong and give incorrect specs. from the very beginning.

Cliff I can respect you not agreeing with me, the Autolite book or Tim. I certainly respect your 50 plus years of being around these cars. I will continue my research on this topic till I have a conciseness on this subject. Can anyone reading this please take a picture of your firewall mounted high base Autolite voltage regulator and post it here. Or just post what numbers you have on yours.
Thanks, Gary Parsons

I respectfully disagree with both you and Tim in reference to the correct regulator for S/C Cords

Cliff... This is directly from my huge Autolite parts manual and... Tim Gilmartin told me this is what fits the GCO4804A generators. The VRB400C high base 4 bolt mount Autolite voltage regulator.

I certainly don’t claim to be an expert, but owning, driving, and restoring some Cords for over 50 years, all the “original” S/C Cords that I’ve worked on had auto light VRB4002D regulators.

Can you tell the forum if the generator is the Autolite GCO4804A shunt generator? It will be a two brush generator. The correct voltage regulator is the VRB4008C. Glad you had the generator tested and it is ok. Others hopefully can explain better how the voltage gose thru the Startix correctly too. There are some adjustments on that and they effect how the charging system works. Its an odd system. With no voltage registering from the generator the startix tell the starter to begin cranking the engine. When the generator shows its making volts the Startix shuts down the starter. You may have a bad coil in the Startix but like mentioned. Others hopefully can chime in with better information. Several high end cars had the startix system. Cords are not the only ones to use this.


Gary Parsons

Hi, Congratulations on your "new" Cord!!!
I wouldn't think the voltage regulator would be causing a large current draw on your system. First is there any current draw with the motor off?
How about with the key on but the motor not running?
How about with the Key in the ACC position and the motor not running?
When running are you getting a good strong spark to the plugs?
If none of those tests show any current draw and you have a good spark then look at the voltage regulator. But I would eliminate other possibilities first.

On my '37 Cord Cabriolet (relatively new to me...) the ammeter is showing significant negative amps while the car is running. I wondered if perhaps the ammeter might be wired backwards, but with the car off and the lights on, it also shows large negative amps, so I believe it's wired correctly. Also, when the car is off, the battery currently reads 6.04V, but when running, the battery reads 5.94V. I had the generator checked, and it's putting out good voltage, so I'm suspicious of my voltage regulator (pic attached). Any other tests I might do to more fully confirm a problem with the regulator?

What's a good source for a regulator? Or can it be rebuilt?

Thanks for input!