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1931 8-98 Cooling Update and still an issue

  • johnmereness
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08 Sep 2016 02:33 #31662 by johnmereness
Replied by johnmereness on topic Re: 1931 8-98 Cooling Update and still an issue
Rich usually gets better cooling over lean

JMM

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  • 1748 S
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06 Sep 2016 02:45 #31647 by 1748 S
Cutting back on the air available to lower the coolant temps seems like the wrong way to go but if it works.. I'm sure going to try it.
My daily driver is an older F350 with an idi diesel in it. I installed a Banks turbo and have rebuilt the engine myself. I more than doubled my original horse power but now use a Rodney Red all aluminum radiator. I boost to 15 lbs too. More air also cools down the burn so we can increase the fuel to use the extra air available now. It's amazing what more air can do for these older diesels. BTW my cranking compression is 530 lbs. Bore is 4.110 as is the stroke. All that volume is squished into about 42 thousands area. Flat top heads and pistons too. No combustion area like a gasser..

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  • Auburn
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06 Sep 2016 00:32 #31645 by Auburn
I have a 1932 8-100 and live in a hot climate with heavy city traffic.and yes I actually drive my cars in the week end into the city .

Had various cooling issues, adding a shroud helped a bit.

I own other classic cars from the 1930's but found that this type of lycoming engines are very sensitive to the air/gasoline mix. This made the biggest difference , more than advancing timing.

Try pulling the choke half or 1/3 and watch the temp go down.

You don't even need to spend time setting the carb , just adjust the choke when needed

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  • johnmereness
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05 Sep 2016 17:26 #31643 by johnmereness
Replied by johnmereness on topic Re: 1931 8-98 Cooling Update and still an issue
Maybe try some Marvel Mystery Oil in the Gas - smokes a little, though good stuff !

JMM

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  • curtiss
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30 Aug 2016 18:12 #31628 by curtiss
Update:
As I mention in my last post I sent the water pump off for a rebuild and knowing it would not be ready to get the car to Auburn this week we worked on getting the speedster ready just to find we have a fuel tank leak and what I think is a sticky valve under load.

I decided to take the water pump off of the speedster and put it on the other car last night. I took it out for a test drive today (95 degrees out) and I think the water pump did the trick. While driving it ran about 180 and hit 190 for long idles. Timing might still need some work.

I installed the proper hoses and clamps to find the pressure side hose leaked. I am thinking the pressure built up too much with a thermostat that I installed so I removed the thermostat and I was able to get the leak to quit from the hoses.

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  • curtiss
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25 Aug 2016 22:02 #31603 by curtiss

johnmereness wrote: Pitting is probably not much harm - what you are trying to do is get the impeller pretty close to the housing to make a quasi "bucket" - ie. You can move more water with a "U" than and "L".

You can always put a drive pin in the impeller or ask a machine tool shop for a "best" fix.

Also, Bill Vestivich mentioned you the other day


Thanks John, I just saw Bill last weekend and he mentioned you recognizing me form the forum.

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22 Aug 2016 04:34 #31575 by johnmereness
Replied by johnmereness on topic Re: 1931 8-98 Cooling Update and still an issue
Pitting is probably not much harm - what you are trying to do is get the impeller pretty close to the housing to make a quasi "bucket" - ie. You can move more water with a "U" than and "L".

You can always put a drive pin in the impeller or ask a machine tool shop for a "best" fix.

Also, Bill Vestivich mentioned you the other day

JMM

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  • curtiss
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19 Aug 2016 11:50 #31562 by curtiss
UPDATE:

I tried holding the outlet hose pinched closed with my hands and it barely pushed any pressure out.

I removed the water pump and removed the 4 bolts but for some reason the case is not separating and I did not want to break it so I figured I would ask for suggestions.

I could shine a light in the hose outlet and look in the drain plug and I could see what appeared to be an aluminum impeller and it looks a little chewed up. Additionally the shaft does not appear to be secured to the impeller as I could stick a screw driver in to stop the impeller from turning and I could turn the input shaft.

Looks like I will need to send it off for a rebuild but I need it back kinda quick as we have The reunion coming up and a show to go to in early October.

Are impellers available any place if this one has to be replaced?

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  • Tom_Parkinson
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17 Aug 2016 02:04 #31545 by Tom_Parkinson
Replied by Tom_Parkinson on topic Re: 1931 8-98 Cooling Update and still an issue
Hi Mike,

The Lasalle's water pump did not have a pin or a set screw feature. It apparently relied--badly--on the tight fit of the impeller. Now it relies on the Lok-Tite. :-)

--Tom

With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.

Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International

See pix of 1509A here: mbcurl.me/YCSE

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  • mikespeed35
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15 Aug 2016 02:19 #31533 by mikespeed35
Replied by mikespeed35 on topic Re: 1931 8-98 Cooling Update and still an issue
Tom, I have never encountered a water pump impeller that was not pinned?
Cordially Mike

Mike Huffman

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  • curtiss
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15 Aug 2016 01:57 #31532 by curtiss
Thanks for all of the answers and ideas. I did not get time to work on it this weekend becasue I was working to get our 33 Speedster back on the ground and running.

I just finished running the 33 (no baffle) at idle for 20 mins and could not get it to go above 158. That was running straight water in it testing for leaks. We will take it for a test drive this week to see how it holds up.

I think my next plan of attack is to drain the 31 cooling system back down again and take the water pump apart to see if something is wrong. That will be this weeks project after work :)

Looks like the 33 comes out of sick bay and the 31 goes into sick bay :)

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  • 1748 S
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14 Aug 2016 20:58 #31530 by 1748 S
Loctite is a great product. Many different types too from the blue. Easily removable to the red Stud and bearing mount 272. Many of the red types require heat to soften them so you can remove a fastener. The 272 needs 300 degrees or you will twist off an 11/16 stud fastener.

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  • Tom_Parkinson
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14 Aug 2016 17:34 #31528 by Tom_Parkinson
Replied by Tom_Parkinson on topic Re: 1931 8-98 Cooling Update and still an issue
Hi,

Is the water pump impeller any good or slipping on the shaft ?


I know from personal experience that this situation can happen. At first I thought maybe the impeller was installed backwards--it wasn't.

Turned out that the impeller on the water pump of my Lasalle was slipping on the shaft. I could turn it by hand. Boy howdy did that car overheat!

My cure was to pull off the impeller, clean and de-slime the shaft and the impeller. and reinstall the impeller in red Lok-tite. Lok-tite red is just shy of a weld: that impeller is NEVER going to slip on the shaft.

--Tom

With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.

Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International

See pix of 1509A here: mbcurl.me/YCSE

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  • johnmereness
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13 Aug 2016 16:23 #31522 by johnmereness
Replied by johnmereness on topic Re: 1931 8-98 Cooling Update and still an issue
Is the water pump impeller any good or slipping on the shaft ?
- I am not sure yet, have not had the pump apart yet, I think that is this weekend's project.

Dig into the water pump - a new gasket, some sealer, lots of patience, and .... and perhaps time to look - at least you will know what you have.

Does it have a decent water distribution tube in the block (I assume a 1931 has one)?
- Most of these cars do not have this as they rusted out and there are no replacements. I heard there were some drawings to build one, I may do that at some point.

Stan Gilliland may have them or call the shop over in Ohio that does all the 31-32 engines - repros have to be around - if it is rotted out you will NEVER get the car to run the way it should (and I am sure people will tell you otherwise, but they made them a certain way for certain reasons). I do not recall when we did the 31 Phaeton (Black and Silver) if you can see the tube via removal of the water jacket cover on the side of the block or how to best inspect.

Timing ?
- I really thought timing was the issue because it originally had an incorrect Chrysler distributor. I found an original and added a pertronix. I timed it by vacuum so I think I am pretty close. Can these be timed with a light, the book makes it sound as you have to set it by points opening?

I am an advocate of points - the whole world ran on points for 70 plus years. You will have to have correct timing. When we bought the 35 Sedan we thought it a bit of a slug (perhaps a hill climbing Columbia given car was from Mount Adams in Cincinnati originally). And, then new owner was saying it developed a knock. The knock turned out to be a worn and mis-adjusted timing chain slapping on the case. And, further investigation revealed the timing gears were mis-aligned (I am not sure we ever timed it with a light, but its first major trip was driving it 700 miles back and forth to Auburn for ACD Festival).

Are you running it too lean ?
- This is one a friend of mine mentioned to me today, I have not messed with the carb yet and not quite sure how to adjust the updraft properly, might need some guidance on that :)

Rich will not hurt it much - you may foul plugs, but you will not be driving it enough to cause much other damage of diluting oil on cylinder walls. Lean on the other hand will get you into more serious problems much more quickly.


I am a big fan of drilling an 1/8 or so hole in a thermostat (eliminates air pockets and ...)
- I drilled three 1/8 inch holes :)

One hole would have been fine, but I doubt three would get you into trouble. A thermostat is often also intended to be a flow restrictor - water must stay in the radiator for a certain period of time to cool properly. Many people think when a car overheats they should take the thermostat out - they generally get themselves into worse trouble by doing so. You were correct in blocking open the radiator shutters - not a fan of shutters being closed for anything other than winning awards in CCCA. I would think the 170 Thermostat fine as well.

Could it just be a really tight engine and need some careful driving around the block for 1000 miles ?
- It has been sitting for a long time and I have been a little scared to drive it this warm, I think we might try to take it for a run this weekend at 30 to 40 mph to see if air flow cools it down.

Tight as in a close tolerance on clearances during rebuild and has not been broken in. When you get a little more comfortable, start driving it around the block over and over for many an evening - Dad and I usually do up and down drive for hours, then some miles around the block, then we progress to neighborhood, then a State Route, and then a highway.

Driving it through the neighborhood it did something strange, going up hill under load it cooled down 5 to 19 degrees but when I went down hill in car to slow it down it warmed back up. I have never had a car do that.

Hum

Heat riser valve in manifold is closed or someone did their own thing building exhaust or full of nuts or .... via mice ?
- This could be an issue, the adjusting arm is broken off and I think it is locked in the on position but I was not sure if that would make the car run hotter or just heat the carb up a lot.

You do not need to be pre-heating or warming anything up - the gas has chaned in formula from when car was new and ..... - make sure it is open. It actually is a restrictor in the exhaust and if closed it back-pressures engine and causes car to "warm up" - just like a thermostat in the radiator it is a thermostat for the exhaust system.

One more thing, I noticed the fan is a about 2 inches away from the radiator while on our speedster it is like 3/4 of an inch away from the radiator. I am not sure how far the fan should be way from the radiator.

I cannot imagine why there would be a difference between your two cars - the engine mounts in frame a certain way, as does radiator. Perhaps they did a mid-year change or .... Does it have the correct fan on it (and not just a close look alike) ? I run a flex fan on the 1935 Phaeton all be it I would never advise such until you get the true problem straightened out - I have it on as I do parades and it likes to go down the road - not crawl (it also traveled 40K miles prior to the installation - ie I was comfortable with car prior to fans installation).

The rest sounds good, you have been asking all the right questions and are on the right track to eventually getting the answer. And, worth getting to the answer - an Auburn tends to be the better of the bunch for 30's road cars.

JMM

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  • curtiss
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13 Aug 2016 04:15 #31520 by curtiss
Thanks for the reply, here are a few answers:

Any chance the lower radiator hose is collapsing
- I do not think this is a problem, the lower hose is actually a modern hose with a spring.

Is the water pump impeller any good or slipping on the shaft ?
- I am not sure yet, have not had the pump apart yet, I think that is this weekend's project.

Does it have a decent water distribution tube in the block (I assume a 1931 has one)?
- Most of these cars do not have this as they rusted out and there are no replacements. I heard there were some drawings to build one, I may do that at some point.

Timing ?
- I really thought timing was the issue because it originally had an incorrect Chrysler distributor. I found an original and added a pertronix. I timed it by vacuum so I think I am pretty close. Can these be timed with a light, the book makes it sound as you have to set it by points opening?

Are you running it too lean ?
- This is one a friend of mine mentioned to me today, I have not messed with the carb yet and not quite sure how to adjust the updraft properly, might need some guidance on that :)

I am a big fan of drilling an 1/8 or so hole in a thermostat (eliminates air pockets and ...)
- I drilled three 1/8 inch holes :)

Could it just be a really tight engine and need some careful driving around the block for 1000 miles ?
- It has been sittign for a long time and I have been a little scared to drive it this warm, I think we might try to take it for a run this weekend at 30 to 40 mph to see if air flow cools it down.

Driving it through the neighborhood it did something strange, going up hill under load it cooled down 5 to 19 degrees but when I went down hill in car to slow it down it warmed back up. I have never had a car do that.

Heat riser valve in manifold is closed or someone did their own thing building exhaust or full of nuts or .... via mice ?
- This could be an issue, the adjusting arm is broken off and I think it is locked in the on position but I was not sure if that would make the car run hotter or just heat the carb up a lot.

One more thing, I noticed the fan is a about 2 inches away from the radiator while on our speedster it is like 3/4 of an inch away from the radiator. I am not sure how far the fan should be way from the radiator.

Saw the video you posted of driving the car.
- Cool, I am hoping to fire up our speedster tomorrow if all goes as planned.

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  • johnmereness
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13 Aug 2016 03:42 #31518 by johnmereness
Replied by johnmereness on topic Re: 1931 8-98 Cooling Update and still an issue
Any chance the lower radiator hose is collapsing via not having a wire in it (I agree that it is often a problem and I agree it is usually a problem at speed verses idle) ?
Is the water pump impeller any good or slipping on the shaft ?
Does it have a decent water distribution tube in the block (I assume a 1931 has one)?
Timing ?
Are you running it too lean ?
I am a big fan of drilling an 1/8 or so hole in a thermostat (eliminates air pockets and ...)
Could it just be a really tight engine and need some careful driving around the block for 1000 miles ?
Heat riser valve in manifold is closed or someone did their own thing building exhaust or full of nuts or .... via mice ?

Saw the video you posted of driving the car.

I will always recall the 36 Cadillac 75 Series Town Cabriolet - it was overheating and everyone seemed puzzled - some how the radiator was sent out and the shop painted it black though forgot to clean it out (I would say it had 10 percent flow).

JMM

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  • mikespeed35
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13 Aug 2016 03:08 #31517 by mikespeed35
Replied by mikespeed35 on topic Re: 1931 8-98 Cooling Update and still an issue
You may be making your own problem here. The way I understand your tests are at idle. A motor does its best cooling going down the road with air moving through the radiator and the water pump turning at operating speed, not at idle. If a car stops at a long traffic light or for a long train it will heat up. Drive your car down the road. The worst that will happened is you will have to pull over, shut it off and wait for it to cool down. Then you may learn more that will help solve the problem. There usually is about a 25 or 30 degree difference between inlet and outlet temp. in a radiator. The large differentiation you have suggests the water is not circulating fast enough, or at all, staying in the block and radiator way too long. Is the water pump shaft turning and the impeller is not? Is the impeller free wheeling on the shaft. There should be much water movement when looking into the radiator fill when the motor is running. I am not familiar with the 8-98 water pump but is it possible to drain the coolant, remove a hose so the impeller is visible and momentarily start the motor and visibly see if the impeller is turning? Hope some of this rambling helps.
Cordially Mike

Mike Huffman

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  • ilikescars
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09 Aug 2016 22:34 #31492 by ilikescars
Replied by ilikescars on topic Re: 1931 8-98 Cooling Update and still an issue
My two cents: I had an overheating problem and it turned out to be "Stop Leak" that someone had poured into the radiator. I assume they were trying to fix a leak at the water jacket (it had cracked). I had to have the radiator disassembled and cleaned of all that gunky stop leak and also had to take the side plate off the engine and wash out a bunch of that gunky product.
Mark

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08 Aug 2016 22:43 #31490 by Ivor
Hello Curtiss,
From your test results for temperature in and temperature out one thing stands out to me and that is the large differential. At 215 in and 146 out that is a differential of 69 degrees, at idle with the poor air flow available through the core this seem very high. To me this indicates the water flow through the radiator is far too slow. This might be due to a partially blocked core, a blockage or a badly corroded water pump impeller. A couple of tests you could do, with an infrared temp tester slowly scan across the radiator core and check for variations in temperature, another simple test for cooling system flow is to connect a tune up type vacuum gauge to the inlet side of the water pump and check if it is reading a high vacuum if it does it indicates poor core flow, this test is only useful if you know the water pump is in good condition and the thermostat is open. The water pump on mine has a plug on the inlet side and one on the outlet, the pump is also very basic and easy to dismantle. One other thing that sometimes happens is the hose from the radiator to the pump goes soft and collapses but this usually happens at high RPM on the highway, it should have a wire type coil spring in the hose to prevent this. Is your core honeycomb or modern cellular.

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  • 1748 S
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08 Aug 2016 20:45 #31488 by 1748 S
Best I can suggest is do a combustion gas test of the coolant. Any good radiator shop can do that for you. That test tells you if there is combustion gas in the coolant and it indicates a cracked head, block of bad head gasket. At the very least it can tell you the head bolts may need torquing to proper ft lbs.. but please.. Do not simply try to tighten any head bolts. There is plenty of ideas about this. Some say it will do nothing because the bolts have set and to break them loose. then torque then down again. Others say you can't re torque them because the threads are dirty and the torque is not going to be correct. Re torquing head bolts is a learned by feel thing. Once you know what it feels like its an easy job one bolt at a time. It is an act of desperation.

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  • curtiss
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08 Aug 2016 16:54 #31487 by curtiss
OK, I have done a number of things thus far and still no success. Only a few left.

Done to date:
- Replaced aftermarket distributor with correct distributor.
- Adjusted timing
- Installed a 170 Thermostat (there was no thermostat when I got it)
- Flushed the cooling system
- Added some 40 Below Additive (this did nothing)

I noticed when I was running straight water the engine would run around 200 ish. As soon as I did a 50/50 mix and added the 40 Below the motor now runs 215 at idle. The top of the radiator has 215 going in and the bottom has 146 coming out.

The only things I have not been ale to test is the water pump flow and I have not had the radiator out for a true flow test but it seemed to be flowing fairly well when I had a hose in the top. The fluid came out clean even after the flush and looking for the thermostat hole it looked decent.

all of my recent test have been done at idle, when I rev the engine to get the fan moving it cools down about 5 degrees. It may cool down a bit on a drive but I have been scared to take it out running this warm.

Any ideas? I have thought about taking the water pump apart but have not found any good diagrams yet so I am not sure what I am getting into :)

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