Engine rebuild

Same issue as a Duesenberg of the period.

I came across a facebook post of a machine shop rebuilding a Kissel 8-95 engine last July in Arizona. I think it confirms why Lynite aluminum rods/Lynite Pistons need to be replaced. Looks like a bad day to me. Thanks to everyone who is helping me on this rebuild. All good recommendations.

BWE did custom pistons for the 8-98 engine of the Museum's 1931 sedan 'Education car'

No chance you cannot leave it at 60K over and just have some "piston slap"; and call it a day or ask for a custom piston to go say 65K over. I have not found many people successful with .080 over on anything ? Again, a lot of people want "good as new", but in boring it out get into problems and in the big picture an engine rebuild only is at a "perfect' point for a period of time and then basically you put wear on it. And a favorite shop and their favorite builder preached knurling verses getting into thin wall issues - but some of these skills are hard to find these days.

I have Aries piston in my 35 and 36 Auburns - and on advice of a well respected fellow in ACD Club who specializes in 34-36 Engine rebuilds. ariaspistons.com/

The block did have a few small cracks around the water jacket cover area which my rebuilder said he could lock and stitch. No cracks on the top deck were seen. I am not going for hp but I was hoping he could go 0.080" over to save a few bucks instead of sleeving it. He did mention resleeving it if necessary so that is why I am inquiring.

By the way, Is Egge the only game in town on pistons? I have seen mixed reviews. Someone mentioned Ross and I was wondering if anyone has recommendations for this motor.

If you are buying pistons anyway why not sleeve to standard. Removes the risk of ruining block and thin bores with a heating problem, All of this if you have a uncracked block. Have you had it checked for cracks?
CORDiallyMike
.

My experience with Lycoming blocks matched to paying very careful attention to what other people have as problems, what they have found as solutions, and what they are doing for engine rebuilds = Lycombing seemed to not be real proficient at their block casting quality and at .060 over I would not get too excited about boring it out any more and I would be asking myself if I could just get a new piston and make due with bore ? You may not like my answer, but if you screw it up then you are faced with sleeving or possibly too thin a wall and overheating = then what are you going to do ? I would look at it this way - if you drive the car 2K miles a year (which is a lot) and you drive it for 10 years, where will you be then (I can point you to some make do work that has gone 20K plus miles since restored and I can point you to some flawless that has gone 5 miles in 40 years - ie it all just depends). And, I have had a few projects with odd duck cars where I have had literally zippo options other than make due or totally re-manufacture. And, I would be tempted to just reuse the valve springs as long as none broken. Sounds like they really do have rod issues, so best to upgrade that though.

Thank you Pete on the rods. I have another question on the Lycoming GS block. The original piston bore size for the Kissel 8-95 had a 2.875" bores. My block is already is bored 0.060 over so what is the largest bore size for this block? I have heard that 3.000" bores were used on some Auburns however the gasket kit I just ordered has the head gasket bore sizes 3.170". I was wondering if anyone knows the safe limits on this block?

Also, what is you opinion on valve springs? Should they be replaced or just reused? If replaced, does anyone have a cross reference or suggestions on where to find a set? I also need the valves if you have any suggestions. Thanks for the tips so far.

Yes
Here are pics.
Pete

Do they have an offset on the large end?

I would have a set of these rods for sale.
Pete Kelly

I remember from studying material science back in the early 1970s that with aluminium forgings etc that the grain boundaries within the metal grow over time weakening the material. Consequently replacing the original aluminium alloy rods with steel ones is the best way to go. Just my 2 cents worth.

I spoke with another owner of an 8-95 engine that has two holes in his block and a destroyed oil pan. The other Kissel restorer that is active replaces them as well. I think if an engine is still in running condition after 90 years and was well taken care of, it probably has good parts in it. However my engine sat for a considerable amount of time and I do not know it's full history so I intend to replace the internals. Aluminum fatigues overtime (that is why airplanes have a finite life) so I have no idea how many cycles my engine went thru. My machine shop recommends finding steel rods (if they exist) or having a new set made. That is why I am asking.

"Everyone" who has successfully toured with a car with an engine like this or "everyone" who just has an opinion on topic - there is a difference. I have had two Auburn 8-90's in the garage over time and never heard a word from people regarding rods. Both those Auburn's successfully toured for years and so did our 1930 Franklin with clearly stamped Lyonite original rods, as well as countless Cadillac's, Packard's and .... A Duesenberg - yes, you may want to seriously think about rod replacement and best to change them than think no.

Let me check what I have.
Pete

I have a question on a lycoming engine similar to an Auburn 1929 8 Cylinder. I am working on rebuilding a 1929 Kissel 8-95 Motor that shares the Lycoming block and I was looking for information on the connecting rods. My original rods were aluminum and everyone I talk with recommends replacing them because they have a high risk of breaking and putting a hole in the block. Does anyone have any recommendations of replacement rods? Should I have them machined, or find a similar used set. They appear unique as they are 9.52" center to center between bores. Crank bore 2.125" and piston pin 0.754". The pistons are 2.875". Any similarities to Auburns? Any recommendations?

To answer the engine rebuild question: I would say not unusual for $1,500 to $2,000 a hole for high end quality. Obviously, if you are doing detailing and legwork the cost will be lower.

Backtracking a little bit. I assume you dropped the engine pan - most cars I have seen people reviving are very glad they did such as they had some pretty crusty stuff in the bottom of the pan (old oil is not "better") - and I have seen plenty of people distribute that crap through their engine and near destroy it and pretty quickly too.

Also, if you are using a 30 weight, I would suspect anything pre WWII would be burning oil - try a 40 weight and then you may then also try a 50 weight if needed.

Finally, use an oil designed for a flat tappeded engine: Ex: inrccca.org/product/classic-car-motor-oil/

thanks, that helps a bunch.

Engine Parts Service did some Duesenberg engines for Randy Ema and will be doing my 37 Cord engine. He is a one man operation in his own shop. Its located about 5 miles from my home in Whittier Ca. Address and phone number is 7337 Whittier Ave. Whittier Ca. 90602. Phone is 562-946-1320. Kurt Frieze owns this and the web is www.enginepartssvc.com
[email protected]
Neal Ziff had his Auburn 8 engine there 5 years ago when I walked thru the shop.


Gary Parsons

Land-Air Associates in Arlington Heights, Ilinois, did my Lycoming engine. He used to work on Lycoming aircraft engines, but now does all types of old engine rebuilding

Good thread...so the question remains as to a list of Lycoming qualified over haul shops. Also is there a source for owners' manuals for Eight Auburns?
thanks!
Larry

Having just faced the situation I can tell you that a rebuild is not cheap. I bought a rebuilt engine for $6500.00 for my 1931 Auburn, 898-A. Didn't include the cost of installation either. Actually saved a little money having gotten ahold of a rebuilt engine by a reputable mechanic... MA

Dear Lance,

Even after a rebuild, my 32 8100 is smoking a little bit when taking off from idle. Do the Mystery Oil trick and then change to Shell Rotella 20W-40 oil.

As long as you do not produce smoke screens at 50 mph, no clunking noises coming from the engine, and adequate oil pressure, do not worry.

Rebuild costs hover between 8 and 10 k these days.

Dear Lance,

If your "mechanic" doesn't know any more than this I would run, not
walk, from his shop and not look back.

Don

Hi Lance,

First...yes it's OK to ask all these questions in this forum, that's what it's all about...sharing information.

Second I'm a Cord guy ( I guess all the Auburn guys are hibernating) so I don't know much about the '31 engine. I can just help with some general info. I'm also the guy who asks the dumb questions, so I'll ask a few more...

Before you started up the engine did you pull the oil pan and valve cover? was there any sludge in there? I've seen several cars that sat for many years that had plugged or partially plugged oil drain holes from the valve area down to the pan. They would be fine for a few minutes untill the oil level rose around the valve stems then the oil would pour in and the engine would smoke like hell!!!

It's also possible you have a stuck piston ring. When the engine is reved up it throws some oil up on the cylinder walls. If the rings don't wipe it off the oil will burn in the combustion process and smoke.

If other checks show nothing seriously wrong (oil pressure, etc.) I'd try a trick a few old timers I know swear by. Put a quart of Marvl Mystery Oil in the crankcase(don't overfill it...also in larger crankcases you may need two quarts. Put some more Marvel Mystery oil in the gas tank (per the instructions). Then go fo a nice long joy ride and beat the car down the road. Run at high speed for a while, Accelerate hard, decelerate hard, etc.

After you get back change the oil while the engine is still hot (or at least warm). I know a couple of very good mechanics that have been around a lot longer then I have and driven many more miles that swear by this. They claim Marvel Mystery Oil cures a lot of ills in engines. I cann't argue with success.

Hopefull a few of the Auburn guys will take a break from thier "long winters nap" and chime in here.

Good luck and let us know how you make out...don't forget the Spring Meet, we'd love to see you and the car.

Jim

Jim
Thanks for the response . I talked to my mechanic friend ....He wanted to know if the engine uses valve seals? He told me that in more modern engines if the seals go bad you get smoke . Are there valve seals in these engines that deteriorate over time ( The 31 sat in the garage for 20 years)and if so can they be replaced and who would carry them if available ? We are also going to do a smoke test on each cylinder.
I know the family (well) who sold me the car and all parties swear that the car didnt smoke. There is only negligible smoke at idle ...almost none. Its when you rev up the engine that you get some blue smoke.
Also as the "new guy" I need to ask if its appropriate to ask all these questions on this forum .
Thanks again ................Lance

Lance,

Before you go for an engine rebuild have you run some checks on the engine? You may have some minor problem and be able to get off a lot cheaper then an engine rebuild.

Some clues to think about...

How's the oil pressure?
Run a vacuum test.
Check the compression.
Does the blue smoke start right away or does it take some time to build up. How much smoke is there? Does it get better or worse as the engine warms up?
What do the spark plugs look like...which cylinder is smoking?

I have no idea what an Auburn engine rebuild costs these days, but I'm sure someone on here can give you an idea.

Jim

Well....Now that the old girl is to the point where she starts easily and runs/idles fine .....I have to face the fact that I'm seeing blue smoke. What can I expect to pay for a straight eight rebuild(1931)? Thanks Lance