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lawsuit about ownership of a (high price) classic

  • landmark
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31 Mar 2013 13:46 #24902 by landmark

landmark wrote: Hello,

according to several german newspaper-articles, in the lawsuit about the ownership of that car, the court has proposed a compromise agreement between the Prym heirs and Mr. van Haren.

The court proposed that the car will be sold (as planed before by Mr. van Haren) for an estimated price of 4 - 5 million Euro ($ 5.4-6.7 million). One third of the amount will go to the Prym heirs and two third to Mr. van Haren.

It is today not written if the two parties would accept the proposed deal.

Here are two links to newspaper-articles about that:

www.abendblatt.de/hamburg/articl ... timer.html

www.manager-magazin.de/lifestyle ... 38,00.html


Cheers

Matt



Hello,

according to an article in the oldtimer magazine "Oldtimer Markt", the lawsuit about the ownership of that car is far from over, indeed.

A little update:

1. The responsible court of last resort (Oberlandesgericht Hamburg) declared the confiscation by German authorities for lawful.

2. The heirs of Mr. Prym and the "buyer" Mr. van Haren aswell deny a compromise agreement (which was proposed by the court).

As the result of the compromise-denial, the lawsuit goes on and it is not sure that a verdict will be done in 2013.


Happy Eastern!

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

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  • silverghost
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31 Jan 2013 21:10 #24420 by silverghost
Replied by silverghost on topic lawsuit about ownership of a (high price) classic
There have been a number of similar such cases in reverse where several rare autos were spirited illegally out of the United States that have been in international litigation over true rightful ownership.

One was an unrestored Rolls~Royce Picadilly roadster that was illegally sold by a restorer who was acually being paid to restore this car or it's owner . Instead the restorer sold the auto to someone in the Chicago area.
This restorer then closed down his shop and disappeared without a trace and was later said to now be long deceased. The new Chicago collector later sold the still unrestored car to a Swiss collector in Europe who completely restored the car to a very high standard at a very high restoration cost.
This "owner" then toured & showed the car at various car events in europe.
Later the original titled real US owner found the car listed on the internet and filed suit for it's rightful return to him in the US.

Also~
A very rare racing Ferarri, with great origial race history, was stolen from a hoarder's outdoor US property and illegally spirited away to europe.
It was then totally restored there.
Now~a vey valuable car indeed.
The late hoarder's estate heir later finally located the fully restored car in europe and attempted legally in court to have it returned to her the rightful owner.

These two cases were reported some years ago~
I have never heard any updates as to how both these international stolen car, & disputed ownrship situations, eventually ever worked-out ? ?

Does anyone here know what the eventual resolution was to both these disputed iternational ownership claims on supposedly stolen, and now very valuable restored cars ? ?
Did the original US owners get their stolen cars back from the european courts & the european "Owners" who restored them ? ?

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

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  • Mike Brady
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31 Jan 2013 00:52 #24416 by Mike Brady
Replied by Mike Brady on topic lawsuit about ownership of a (high price) classic
Matt,

Did the court consider that the car might only bring a fraction of that estimate given the ownership issues. If there is any possibility that the German court ruling can be appealed by another court, this case could be far from over.

In any case, please continue to keep us posted.

Thanks

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  • landmark
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30 Jan 2013 11:38 #24412 by landmark
Hello,

according to several german newspaper-articles, in the lawsuit about the ownership of that car, the court has proposed a compromise agreement between the Prym heirs and Mr. van Haren.

The court proposed that the car will be sold (as planed before by Mr. van Haren) for an estimated price of 4 - 5 million Euro ($ 5.4-6.7 million). One third of the amount will go to the Prym heirs and two third to Mr. van Haren.

It is today not written if the two parties would accept the proposed deal.

Here are two links to newspaper-articles about that:

www.abendblatt.de/hamburg/articl ... timer.html

www.manager-magazin.de/lifestyle ... 38,00.html


Cheers

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

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25 Jun 2012 10:59 #23093 by alsancle
I'm thinking the buyer was not aware of the title issues. I can't imagine he would bring the car to Germany if he knew that. You would want to fight the battle in a local court so if you knew of the issues I imagine you would let them file in your home country.

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  • Tom_Parkinson
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25 Jun 2012 01:04 #23092 by Tom_Parkinson
Replied by Tom_Parkinson on topic lawsuit about ownership of a (high price) classic
Hi,

1st thought: Perhaps there is a need for a title-insurance industry in our hobby.

2nd thought: if I had bought a multi-million dollar car knowing that the title was being challenged in a foreign country, I sure as heck would not ship the car to anywhere where that foreign country has jurisdiction!

3rd thought: this melodrama may instigate a practice of requirement of a Seller's Bond to back up title of high-dollar cars.

--Tom

With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.

Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International

See pix of 1509A here: mbcurl.me/YCSE

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  • landmark
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24 Jun 2012 21:52 #23091 by landmark

balinwire wrote: Translation of the link, German Newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung

Controversy over luxury vintageHow the Green Mercedes was redNot only paintings, cars: the case of a seized, 4.9 million of expensive sport Roadster from 1935 for the discussion of restitution what does mean?

By Niklas MaakPhoto: PrivateThe Stolberger entrepreneur Hans-Friedrich Prym was sixty years old when he in 1935 made a special car: A Mercedes-Benz 500 k Special Roadster in green special livery, a two-seater, which at the time was one of the most expensive vehicles, were to get for money.

Prym had money.
He came from the oldest German industrialist dynasty, the Pryms are already 1340 in Aachen, ancestors invented the button and much more, the company is still there.You know what happened to the car, who drove him not exactly, whether Prym drove him over the last four years before the war even on sunny days of June on the dusty roads of the sautee Valley or even further, rustled to Aachen or Brussels.

Only a few years later factories have been built at Pryms war, and although Prym never joined the Nazi party, he lost his factories - and his car, which he had hidden in a workshop before the seizures of the Nazis after the war.Stolen property as a property?Apparently was the car in the summer of 1945 stolen - unclear is, whether from American soldiers or thieves.

Since then, the car was considered lost. But in August 2011 Pryms descendants through a "Google Alert" learned that a Canadian auction house in an auction in California offers one of the extremely rare Mercedes 500 k. The auction house claimed on request of the heirs, that its property rights without a doubt would be forfeited."But which should arise, that legitimate ownership of a thing that had been stolen in 1945 simply and obviously since then was lost by occupying for their withdrawal?", ask the process conducting Attorney of Martius and the looted art expert Christoph Berg.

Neither German nor under American law someone can become owners if he buys stolen goods. And whether "the owner can lose his rights by sheer over time, so by Usucaption or lapse of time", is more than questionable.Extension of the Department ofThe vehicle was been - auctioned off last in the August of 2011 at an auction in Monterey for $3.8 million in the Dutch businessman Frans van HAREN and, although previously the Prym heirs already had communicated that they claim on the vehicle.

In March 2012, the Mercedes red painted for a long time finally emerges at the techno Classica in Essen. Van HAREN had offered to the vehicle at the classic luxury car dealer Eberhard Thiesen for 4.9 million euros. The car was seized due to an injunction. End of may the hearing to the interim injunction were held now in Hamburg, where the District Court of the injunction has upheld.What are the consequences of this case? Will in particular, that the provenance research be extended also to vehicles of the so-called high-priced segment.

The Prym family has hidden their cars the war over, he was taken probably after the war by American soldiers. There is but still quite different classic vehicles, which also appear on the international luxury vehicle market - the vehicles of crops or deported Jewish families; Automobiles, that today millions values and where, as until a few years ago in the art trade, were unclear sources between 1933 and 1945 has not as a serious obstacle for the sale. But also in this field there will be to research yet forgotten destinies and unclear ownership, hiding behind the polished wheels and the to-painted bodies.


A welldone translation of the article.

Thank you Balinwire

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

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22 Jun 2012 17:17 #23088 by balinwire
Translation of the link, German Newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung

Controversy over luxury vintageHow the Green Mercedes was redNot only paintings, cars: the case of a seized, 4.9 million of expensive sport Roadster from 1935 for the discussion of restitution what does mean?

By Niklas MaakPhoto: PrivateThe Stolberger entrepreneur Hans-Friedrich Prym was sixty years old when he in 1935 made a special car: A Mercedes-Benz 500 k Special Roadster in green special livery, a two-seater, which at the time was one of the most expensive vehicles, were to get for money.

Prym had money.
He came from the oldest German industrialist dynasty, the Pryms are already 1340 in Aachen, ancestors invented the button and much more, the company is still there.You know what happened to the car, who drove him not exactly, whether Prym drove him over the last four years before the war even on sunny days of June on the dusty roads of the sautee Valley or even further, rustled to Aachen or Brussels.

Only a few years later factories have been built at Pryms war, and although Prym never joined the Nazi party, he lost his factories - and his car, which he had hidden in a workshop before the seizures of the Nazis after the war.Stolen property as a property?Apparently was the car in the summer of 1945 stolen - unclear is, whether from American soldiers or thieves.

Since then, the car was considered lost. But in August 2011 Pryms descendants through a "Google Alert" learned that a Canadian auction house in an auction in California offers one of the extremely rare Mercedes 500 k. The auction house claimed on request of the heirs, that its property rights without a doubt would be forfeited."But which should arise, that legitimate ownership of a thing that had been stolen in 1945 simply and obviously since then was lost by occupying for their withdrawal?", ask the process conducting Attorney of Martius and the looted art expert Christoph Berg.

Neither German nor under American law someone can become owners if he buys stolen goods. And whether "the owner can lose his rights by sheer over time, so by Usucaption or lapse of time", is more than questionable.Extension of the Department ofThe vehicle was been - auctioned off last in the August of 2011 at an auction in Monterey for $3.8 million in the Dutch businessman Frans van HAREN and, although previously the Prym heirs already had communicated that they claim on the vehicle.

In March 2012, the Mercedes red painted for a long time finally emerges at the techno Classica in Essen. Van HAREN had offered to the vehicle at the classic luxury car dealer Eberhard Thiesen for 4.9 million euros. The car was seized due to an injunction. End of may the hearing to the interim injunction were held now in Hamburg, where the District Court of the injunction has upheld.What are the consequences of this case? Will in particular, that the provenance research be extended also to vehicles of the so-called high-priced segment.

The Prym family has hidden their cars the war over, he was taken probably after the war by American soldiers. There is but still quite different classic vehicles, which also appear on the international luxury vehicle market - the vehicles of crops or deported Jewish families; Automobiles, that today millions values and where, as until a few years ago in the art trade, were unclear sources between 1933 and 1945 has not as a serious obstacle for the sale. But also in this field there will be to research yet forgotten destinies and unclear ownership, hiding behind the polished wheels and the to-painted bodies.

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  • balinwire
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22 Jun 2012 14:26 #23086 by balinwire
A similar lawsuit over a Mongolian Dinosaur fossil allowed the return of the bones after a number of years but the claim had a little more merit. Details,
news.yahoo.com/u-close-seizing-d ... 05115.html

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  • landmark
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21 Jun 2012 15:28 #23079 by landmark
Hello,

here an update to that case. According to the german Newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, the heirs of Mr. Prym achieved the first time informations about the destination of the car in August 2011. They contacted the auction-company before the auction, that they (the heirs) claim the ownership of the car.
Nevertheless the auction-company answered, that because of the long time passing (since 1945) their ownership has for sure expired and auctioned the car with the knowledge about the claim of the heirs.

According to the same newspaper article Mr. van Haren (the buyer) went to that german fair in order to offer/sell the car for a price of 4.9 million Euros or roundabout $ 6.2 million.

m.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/kun ... 79814.html


Cheers

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

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  • landmark
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09 Jun 2012 12:34 #23010 by landmark

alsancle wrote: My understanding with "stolen" cars is that each owner goes back to the previous owner to recoup their purchase price. Of course, in some point of the chain of ownership that probably becomes impossible.


Hello alsancle,

that would be my "logical" understanding aswell. But I think Mr. van Haren is in a very unconfortable situation.

The judgement which took the car-ownership to the heirs of Mr. Prym was made in Germany by a german court.

If Mr. van Haren wants his money back from RM or Mr. Lyon, he has to sattle a lawsuit in the USA. And who knows if an american court will follow the view of the german court...

And who knows, if Mr. van Haren wins the lawsuit, if the former owner is able to pay the money back <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->

I don't think that Mr. Lyon sold his three pre-war Kompressor-Mercedes "just for fun" :rolleyes:

lansner.ocregister.com/2011/11/1 ... cy/150753/


Cheers

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

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09 Jun 2012 11:56 #23009 by alsancle
My understanding with "stolen" cars is that each owner goes back to the previous owner to recoup their purchase price. Of course, in some point of the chain of ownership that probably becomes impossible.

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  • landmark
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08 Jun 2012 20:15 #23006 by landmark

balinwire wrote: The court has awarded the car to the heirs as stolen war booty. It just seems that following the ownership of these cars all the way back would be impossible as even the history of the Duesenbergs is cloudy in many cases. HM may be on the hook but they did disclose it "showed up" sometimes in the 70's. Best advice is not to sell or show your car in another country. I have the title for the Ford Museum Cord, I guess it's mine. :+)

www.autoblog.com/2012/06/07/4m-w ... d%3D168297


Hello Balinwire,

thank you for the link. The last passage of that is interesting. I hope Mr. van Haren gets out of that disaster without to much loss.

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

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08 Jun 2012 19:34 #23005 by balinwire
The court has awarded the car to the heirs as stolen war booty. It just seems that following the ownership of these cars all the way back would be impossible as even the history of the Duesenbergs is cloudy in many cases. HM may be on the hook but they did disclose it "showed up" sometimes in the 70's. Best advice is not to sell or show your car in another country. I have the title for the Ford Museum Cord, I guess it's mine. :+)

www.autoblog.com/2012/06/07/4m-w ... d%3D168297

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08 Jun 2012 02:07 #23001 by balinwire
The problem is that the statue of limitations begins when the car re enters the country. There may be some documentation of the claim of post war loss. The conclusion of this could be of concern to any owners of imported vehicles. Some countries will not allow certain vehicles cannot be exported as they are considered state artifacts. Many vehicles have left the States under unusual circumstances. I wonder if those countries would be reciprocal in cooperation on returning these vehicles in question. Anyone can make a claim but I am sure the original owner will regain his car. Anything else would be just as corrupt as the grandfather claim.

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07 Jun 2012 12:43 #23000 by alsancle
As I know a little bit about these cars I guess I'll throw a couple of comments out. Most prewar MB production was sold to European owners new - which is what you would expect. New MB sales in the U.S for the period of 1936 to 1940 was approx 30 cars of all models and maybe 10 500k/540ks. A U.S. delivered car would be safe from this. However, a large number of 500k/540K Mercedes, as well as Horch and other desirable European cars were purchased by GI's and brought back to the U.S.. I doubt many of these (if any) have any paperwork from that transaction. Of course, the cars coming back from the USSR and eastern Europe could have an even more murky history.

The problem is at this point there is no reasonable way to tell if a car was stolen/confiscated or legally purchased. Basically a mess. I think it's critical that the claim the car was stolen was made in period and documented and not conjured about by someone's great grandchildren.

I don't know the whole story on this car. I do feel bad for the current owner who has done nothing wrong. Hopefully the whole thing will be sorted out in a reasonable way.

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  • landmark
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07 Jun 2012 11:31 #22998 by landmark
Hello,

that: www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails.cf ... &Currency= would be the car, the story is about.


Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

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06 Jun 2012 13:16 #22992 by landmark
Hello,

this is not about an ACD car, but an interesting story of the disput about the ownership of a pre-war jewel.

I found the report in the german newsmagazin "Der Spiegel", the story is as follows:

A dutch car collector bought a 1935 Mercedes 500K Roadster at an (pebble-beach) auction in 2011. The price was roundabout $ 3.8 million.

He shipped the car to the Netherlands. In april 2012 he went with the car to the german classic car fair "Techno Classica".

At that fair the car had been confiscated by German authorities. The cause for that was that the heirs (grandchildren) of the first german owner Mr. Hans Friedrich Prym (owner 1935-1945) say that Mr. Prym has not sold the car to a US soldier in 1945, who shipped the car to the USA. The Prym heirs say the car was taken without paying and without a salescontract.

Last week a german court judged that the car is owned by Mr. Prym's heirs and the cartaking in 1945 was unlawful.

I think that would be (by far) not the end of that story and following lawsuits will take years with an open end.

Here is link to the german "Spiegel" report: www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/proz ... 36516.html

And here an older article about the confiscation in english language: www.businessinsider.com/1935-mercedes-2012-4


Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

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