lawsuit about ownership of a (high price) classic

More
09 Jun 2012 11:56 #23009 by alsancle
alsancle replied the topic:
My understanding with "stolen" cars is that each owner goes back to the previous owner to recoup their purchase price. Of course, in some point of the chain of ownership that probably becomes impossible.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • landmark
  • landmark's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • New User
  • New User
More
09 Jun 2012 12:34 #23010 by landmark
landmark replied the topic:

alsancle wrote: My understanding with "stolen" cars is that each owner goes back to the previous owner to recoup their purchase price. Of course, in some point of the chain of ownership that probably becomes impossible.


Hello alsancle,

that would be my "logical" understanding aswell. But I think Mr. van Haren is in a very unconfortable situation.

The judgement which took the car-ownership to the heirs of Mr. Prym was made in Germany by a german court.

If Mr. van Haren wants his money back from RM or Mr. Lyon, he has to sattle a lawsuit in the USA. And who knows if an american court will follow the view of the german court...

And who knows, if Mr. van Haren wins the lawsuit, if the former owner is able to pay the money back <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->

I don't think that Mr. Lyon sold his three pre-war Kompressor-Mercedes "just for fun" :rolleyes:

http://lansner.ocregister.com/2011/11/1 ... cy/150753/


Cheers

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • landmark
  • landmark's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • New User
  • New User
More
21 Jun 2012 15:28 #23079 by landmark
landmark replied the topic:
Hello,

here an update to that case. According to the german Newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, the heirs of Mr. Prym achieved the first time informations about the destination of the car in August 2011. They contacted the auction-company before the auction, that they (the heirs) claim the ownership of the car.
Nevertheless the auction-company answered, that because of the long time passing (since 1945) their ownership has for sure expired and auctioned the car with the knowledge about the claim of the heirs.

According to the same newspaper article Mr. van Haren (the buyer) went to that german fair in order to offer/sell the car for a price of 4.9 million Euros or roundabout $ 6.2 million.

http://m.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/kun ... 79814.html


Cheers

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • balinwire
  • balinwire's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Frequent Forum Contributor
  • Frequent Forum Contributor
More
22 Jun 2012 14:26 #23086 by balinwire
balinwire replied the topic:
A similar lawsuit over a Mongolian Dinosaur fossil allowed the return of the bones after a number of years but the claim had a little more merit. Details,
http://news.yahoo.com/u-close-seizing-d ... 05115.html

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • balinwire
  • balinwire's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Frequent Forum Contributor
  • Frequent Forum Contributor
More
22 Jun 2012 17:17 #23088 by balinwire
balinwire replied the topic:
Translation of the link, German Newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung

Controversy over luxury vintageHow the Green Mercedes was redNot only paintings, cars: the case of a seized, 4.9 million of expensive sport Roadster from 1935 for the discussion of restitution what does mean?

By Niklas MaakPhoto: PrivateThe Stolberger entrepreneur Hans-Friedrich Prym was sixty years old when he in 1935 made a special car: A Mercedes-Benz 500 k Special Roadster in green special livery, a two-seater, which at the time was one of the most expensive vehicles, were to get for money.

Prym had money.
He came from the oldest German industrialist dynasty, the Pryms are already 1340 in Aachen, ancestors invented the button and much more, the company is still there.You know what happened to the car, who drove him not exactly, whether Prym drove him over the last four years before the war even on sunny days of June on the dusty roads of the sautee Valley or even further, rustled to Aachen or Brussels.

Only a few years later factories have been built at Pryms war, and although Prym never joined the Nazi party, he lost his factories - and his car, which he had hidden in a workshop before the seizures of the Nazis after the war.Stolen property as a property?Apparently was the car in the summer of 1945 stolen - unclear is, whether from American soldiers or thieves.

Since then, the car was considered lost. But in August 2011 Pryms descendants through a "Google Alert" learned that a Canadian auction house in an auction in California offers one of the extremely rare Mercedes 500 k. The auction house claimed on request of the heirs, that its property rights without a doubt would be forfeited."But which should arise, that legitimate ownership of a thing that had been stolen in 1945 simply and obviously since then was lost by occupying for their withdrawal?", ask the process conducting Attorney of Martius and the looted art expert Christoph Berg.

Neither German nor under American law someone can become owners if he buys stolen goods. And whether "the owner can lose his rights by sheer over time, so by Usucaption or lapse of time", is more than questionable.Extension of the Department ofThe vehicle was been - auctioned off last in the August of 2011 at an auction in Monterey for $3.8 million in the Dutch businessman Frans van HAREN and, although previously the Prym heirs already had communicated that they claim on the vehicle.

In March 2012, the Mercedes red painted for a long time finally emerges at the techno Classica in Essen. Van HAREN had offered to the vehicle at the classic luxury car dealer Eberhard Thiesen for 4.9 million euros. The car was seized due to an injunction. End of may the hearing to the interim injunction were held now in Hamburg, where the District Court of the injunction has upheld.What are the consequences of this case? Will in particular, that the provenance research be extended also to vehicles of the so-called high-priced segment.

The Prym family has hidden their cars the war over, he was taken probably after the war by American soldiers. There is but still quite different classic vehicles, which also appear on the international luxury vehicle market - the vehicles of crops or deported Jewish families; Automobiles, that today millions values and where, as until a few years ago in the art trade, were unclear sources between 1933 and 1945 has not as a serious obstacle for the sale. But also in this field there will be to research yet forgotten destinies and unclear ownership, hiding behind the polished wheels and the to-painted bodies.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • landmark
  • landmark's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • New User
  • New User
More
24 Jun 2012 21:52 #23091 by landmark
landmark replied the topic:

balinwire wrote: Translation of the link, German Newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung

Controversy over luxury vintageHow the Green Mercedes was redNot only paintings, cars: the case of a seized, 4.9 million of expensive sport Roadster from 1935 for the discussion of restitution what does mean?

By Niklas MaakPhoto: PrivateThe Stolberger entrepreneur Hans-Friedrich Prym was sixty years old when he in 1935 made a special car: A Mercedes-Benz 500 k Special Roadster in green special livery, a two-seater, which at the time was one of the most expensive vehicles, were to get for money.

Prym had money.
He came from the oldest German industrialist dynasty, the Pryms are already 1340 in Aachen, ancestors invented the button and much more, the company is still there.You know what happened to the car, who drove him not exactly, whether Prym drove him over the last four years before the war even on sunny days of June on the dusty roads of the sautee Valley or even further, rustled to Aachen or Brussels.

Only a few years later factories have been built at Pryms war, and although Prym never joined the Nazi party, he lost his factories - and his car, which he had hidden in a workshop before the seizures of the Nazis after the war.Stolen property as a property?Apparently was the car in the summer of 1945 stolen - unclear is, whether from American soldiers or thieves.

Since then, the car was considered lost. But in August 2011 Pryms descendants through a "Google Alert" learned that a Canadian auction house in an auction in California offers one of the extremely rare Mercedes 500 k. The auction house claimed on request of the heirs, that its property rights without a doubt would be forfeited."But which should arise, that legitimate ownership of a thing that had been stolen in 1945 simply and obviously since then was lost by occupying for their withdrawal?", ask the process conducting Attorney of Martius and the looted art expert Christoph Berg.

Neither German nor under American law someone can become owners if he buys stolen goods. And whether "the owner can lose his rights by sheer over time, so by Usucaption or lapse of time", is more than questionable.Extension of the Department ofThe vehicle was been - auctioned off last in the August of 2011 at an auction in Monterey for $3.8 million in the Dutch businessman Frans van HAREN and, although previously the Prym heirs already had communicated that they claim on the vehicle.

In March 2012, the Mercedes red painted for a long time finally emerges at the techno Classica in Essen. Van HAREN had offered to the vehicle at the classic luxury car dealer Eberhard Thiesen for 4.9 million euros. The car was seized due to an injunction. End of may the hearing to the interim injunction were held now in Hamburg, where the District Court of the injunction has upheld.What are the consequences of this case? Will in particular, that the provenance research be extended also to vehicles of the so-called high-priced segment.

The Prym family has hidden their cars the war over, he was taken probably after the war by American soldiers. There is but still quite different classic vehicles, which also appear on the international luxury vehicle market - the vehicles of crops or deported Jewish families; Automobiles, that today millions values and where, as until a few years ago in the art trade, were unclear sources between 1933 and 1945 has not as a serious obstacle for the sale. But also in this field there will be to research yet forgotten destinies and unclear ownership, hiding behind the polished wheels and the to-painted bodies.


A welldone translation of the article.

Thank you Balinwire

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Time to create page: 0.119 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum