Duesenberg SJ La Grand Phaeton questions from a newbie

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29 May 2013 15:58 #25247 by BSteinIPMS
BSteinIPMS replied the topic: Re: Duesenberg SJ La Grand Phaeton questions from a newbie
Hi Matt,

Thanks for the edifying information. I'm aware of the intake and exhaust sides of the Straight-eight engine, but I confess I was confused by so many photos illustrating four flexible segmented exhaust pipes coming out both sides. Now I understand: V-8 conversions and reproductions. Nice to know!

I've measured the sweep panels on photos of the Louwman La Grande and the LeBaron attributed to Bob Grooters. They seem to have the same curve and depth into the door panel. Thanks to your information I've noticed for the first time that the Louwman vehicle has the front door hinges installed on their rear edge, being so-called "suicide" doors, while the LeBaron has all four doors opening in the conventional manner, e.g.: with the hinges on the forward edges of the doors. This is what the Hubley/Gabriel kit has represented, along with the type of trunk I see on LeBaron D-C SP Phaetons. So, it would seem the Hubley kit is mis-labeled: it's a LeBaron rather than a La Grande. Any other opinions out there?

The best photos I've found (after perusing thousands online while my wife thought I was out cutting the lawn......) are of Bob Grooters' vehicle. This is illustrated on page 164 of Dennis Adler's book "Duesenberg". I'm aware of the many errors found in the book, so I guess I'll have to take the caption of this photo reservedly: it states this is a 1932 (S)J model, chassis #2151, engine J-129. Following the Duesenberg Index on the link you so graciously provided corroborates this, and shows this red/maroon vehicle was at one time painted red/blue. I wonder which is more current?

Cheers!
--Bob

landmark wrote: Hello Bob,

in addition to what Kay and Bob Roller already told:

1. As Kay said; four Pipes on the right side. The Duesenberg J-engine is a straight (inline) eight engine ->right side is the exhaust-side, left side the intake side (no exhaust-pipes there!)
Some "new" replica (fake) cars are V-8 powered and have exhaustpipes on both sides, e.g. the yellow "Duesenberg" in the new Great Gatsby movie is such a replica car (not an original Duesenberg J!)


2. I would guess so, many bodies were restyled/modified in the second half of the thirties (and later) B.t.w. that car is J-532 and was topic in an older posting, here it is: http://forums.acdclub.org/phpbb2/viewto ... cd8550105f


3. As Bob Roller told and the sweep-panel DCPs of each of both companies differ a in some details from car to car e.g. some La Grande DCP have the doorhandles in front and open in front other open (like modern cars) in rear (doorhandles in rear of the door) a.s.o.


I think the complete Model J serie is named by the factory as "Model J" (supercharged or not) the "SJ" designation comes not from the factory. Only some of the very late produced cars were named JN, the N means new (body) style.

On a lot of former uncharged Model J was a supercharger later added.


4. The eight(port) in one manifold on the Collings Foundation car (J-261) is the very rare "Monel" manifold. I think that manifold was mounted on the early (by factory) supercharged Model J before the "Four-Pipe" Exhausts were introduced.

Here you will find a detail picture of such a manifold: http://www.rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1060491


5. Do you know this site?

http://duesey2208.com/Datasheets/frmModelJIndex.htm

When you "klick" on a car you will find additional informations and pictures to that car <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->


Cheers

Matt

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29 May 2013 16:54 #25248 by landmark
landmark replied the topic: Re: Duesenberg SJ La Grand Phaeton questions from a newbie

BSteinIPMS wrote:
(...)

I've noticed for the first time that the Louwman vehicle has the front door hinges installed on their rear edge, being so-called "suicide" doors, while the LeBaron has all four doors opening in the conventional manner, e.g.: with the hinges on the forward edges of the doors. This is what the Hubley/Gabriel kit has represented, along with the type of trunk I see on LeBaron D-C SP Phaetons. So, it would seem the Hubley kit is mis-labeled: it's a LeBaron rather than a La Grande. Any other opinions out there?

(...)



Hello Bob,

I am sorry my english is not as good as it could/should be.

What I tried to figure out with the door-opening-example (regular vs. suicide) is, that not all DCP of one coachbuilder (La Grande or Le Baron) look the same, there are often details which changes inside the DCP-"Series" of one choachbuilder.

For example two La Grande DCP with different doorhinge-mountings:

1. The Louwman-museum La Grande (J-532) -> Doorhinges in the rear (suicide door) http://www.duesey2208.com/Datasheets/Mo ... rm2559.htm

2. The Collings-Foundation La Grande (J-261) -> Doorhinges in the front (regular-opening door) http://www.duesey2208.com/Datasheets/Mo ... rm2283.htm

I am not an expert, who can tell what are the main differences between the La Grande and Le Baron DCP body-designs. But I guess Bob Roller is right with his idea of different sweep-panel sizes and "bow-radius" at the door.

Take a look at the door-panel of that Le Baron DCP http://www.duesey2208.com/Datasheets/Mo ... rm2336.htm and compare it with the Collings-car. For me it looks different.

Cheers

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

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29 May 2013 19:02 #25249 by BSteinIPMS
BSteinIPMS replied the topic: Re: Duesenberg SJ La Grand Phaeton questions from a newbie
Matt, Ihr Englisch ist sehr gut, viel besser als mein Deutsch!

Thanks for the information; all of it is valuable to me. I appreciate the help and advice of everyone here.

Cheers!
--Bob

landmark wrote:
Hello Bob,

I am sorry my english is not as good as it could/should be.

What I tried to figure out with the door-opening-example (regular vs. suicide) is, that not all DCP of one coachbuilder (La Grande or Le Baron) look the same, there are often details which changes inside the DCP-"Series" of one choachbuilder.

For example two La Grande DCP with different doorhinge-mountings:

1. The Louwman-museum La Grande (J-532) -> Doorhinges in the rear (suicide door) http://www.duesey2208.com/Datasheets/Mo ... rm2559.htm

2. The Collings-Foundation La Grande (J-261) -> Doorhinges in the front (regular-opening door) http://www.duesey2208.com/Datasheets/Mo ... rm2283.htm

I am not an expert, who can tell what are the main differences between the La Grande and Le Baron DCP body-designs. But I guess Bob Roller is right with his idea of different sweep-panel sizes and "bow-radius" at the door.

Take a look at the door-panel of that Le Baron DCP http://www.duesey2208.com/Datasheets/Mo ... rm2336.htm and compare it with the Collings-car. For me it looks different.

Cheers

Matt

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29 May 2013 20:59 #25250 by silverghost
silverghost replied the topic:
You must keep in mind that many of these Model "J" autos have been heavily altered since the chassis & engines have first left the factory.
Engines have been swapped & substituted from one "J" number to another chassis.
Intake manifold configurations & carb types have often been changed from updraft to downdraft, and in some cases multiple carbs added etc. & reproduction superchargers & supercharger intake manifold pipe styles were often added much later in the engine's long lifetime.
Duesenberg Model "J" autos have also been subjected to many coachwork body swaps & bodywork alterations during the many decades since first being built new.
The body paint colors on the very exact same car's coachwork may have been changed a half dozen times,or more, over the years also depending on the personal color choice taste of some later owners.

Very few of these cars seem to look exactly like they first left the Duesenberg factory & first body coachbuilder's shop.

Often one sees several photos taken over the many decades of the exact same model "J" # auto and you might well think you are looking at several different cars because of the later changes & alterations a new later owner has made to his own taste to this car.

Keep in mind~~~
A real true model "J" never had pipes comming out of both sides of the hood nor did they ever have V-8 style engines. Only the much later replicar reproductions had chrom flex exhaust pipes on both hood sides.

It is really easy to get confused when looking at photos of these fine model "J" cars
In the end~~~do a bit of online research ~~~then choose what you think the car should really look like from other examples of real surviving autos.

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

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30 May 2013 13:27 #25257 by BSteinIPMS
BSteinIPMS replied the topic:
Thanks Brad,
From what you say here, along with all the reading I've done in the dozen or so books on Duesenberg I have, I come away with the impression that the chassis & engines & bodies & paint were swapped around more than a Hollywood spouse.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. As an aside, I grew up in Elkins Park and used to ride my bike to a very nice hobby shop which used to be in the Huntington Valley shopping center. Small world.

Cheers!
--Bob

silverghost wrote: You must keep in mind that many of these Model "J" autos have been heavily altered since the chassis & engines have first left the factory.
Engines have been swapped & substituted from one "J" number to another chassis.
Intake manifold configurations & carb types have often been changed from updraft to downdraft, and in some cases multiple carbs added etc. & reproduction superchargers & supercharger intake manifold pipe styles were often added much later in the engine's long lifetime.
Duesenberg Model "J" autos have also been subjected to many coachwork body swaps & bodywork alterations during the many decades since first being built new.
The body paint colors on the very exact same car's coachwork may have been changed a half dozen times,or more, over the years also depending on the personal color choice taste of some later owners.

Very few of these cars seem to look exactly like they first left the Duesenberg factory & first body coachbuilder's shop.

Often one sees several photos taken over the many decades of the exact same model "J" # auto and you might well think you are looking at several different cars because of the later changes & alterations a new later owner has made to his own taste to this car.

Keep in mind~~~
A real true model "J" never had pipes comming out of both sides of the hood nor did they ever have V-8 style engines. Only the much later replicar reproductions had chrom flex exhaust pipes on both hood sides.

It is really easy to get confused when looking at photos of these fine model "J" cars
In the end~~~do a bit of online research ~~~then choose what you think the car should really look like from other examples of real surviving autos.

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30 May 2013 16:45 #25258 by silverghost
silverghost replied the topic:
Hi BOB~

I am Not a Duesenberg model "J" expert by any means~
But I think that the percentage of existing surviving model "J" autos that are exactly 100 % like they were first built when new are possibly only about 1/3 of the total survivors out there today.

You are indeed correct in your conclusions about the many altered model "J" autos.

Other true historans of the model "J" here could posibly pin this 100% originality number down much better than I can ? !

All the other survivors have been altered in some small or larger way or another.
Some have been highly altered over the decades since being first built new.
I know of No other car brand, or model, out there today that has seen so many alterations,, body coachwork, & chassis,engine swaps etc. done over the decades as the great model "J".

Watever you decide to do to build your model project~~~ it will still be fine & correct !

What a small world indeed ~
I do not live very far from the Huntingdon Valley Shopping Center~~~only about three miles, or so~

I also know the Elkins Park area fairly well .
It is still a fairly nice area today !

It was named for the famous Philadelphia Elkins famly who once had a very large Mansion estate there. The Elkins & Widener familys once owned ALL the trolley & railroad transporaton lines and routes in the region. At one time at their peak thay owned 500 miles of commuter trolley, streetcar, & rail tracks.
Much of this very large Elkins estate has been long since torn-down and redeveloped. There are however a few surviving estate service out buildings, gate-houses, stables etc. now converted into private homes .

The Widener family mansion "Lynnewood Hall " still stands sadly abandoned and going slowly downhill today. (Do a google search for more information on the mansion)
I do hope it can still be saved !
It is the largest mansion estate still existing in our area with some 157 rooms ! It is said to be four times the size & floorspace of our White House in washington DC.
It was, & is, still in the top six largest sized private homes ever built in the USA !
It is called the Versailles of the USA !

In high school I dated a young girl who was a member of the Elkins family. They still own & live in a small 50 room "summer cottage" estate called "Albidale" , not very far from my home base here ,where the Elkins family once raised prise jumper, steeplechase , show, and race horses.

When I was a kid the Elkins family still held Fox Hunts on this grand estate !
You would not believethe old autos that were once in their ten bay garage with two service pits & diver's livning quarters.
Much of this estate & the grand mansion "cottage" itself is still intact today !

By the way~~~
I see you are a pilot ~~~
Members of my extended family own, & operate, the North East Philadelpha Jet Center airport FBO !

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

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