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Rudolph Valentino Duesenberg Model "A" ?

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18 May 2013 12:03 #25208 by 61xlch
Here the 2 pics of RV in with Duesenberg A:



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  • Mike Dube
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17 May 2013 13:55 #25204 by Mike Dube
Replied by Mike Dube on topic Re: Valentino

Bob Roller wrote: Caveat Emptor or maybe Barnum was right applies every where.

Bob Roller


Hear Hear!

Mike
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  • Bob Roller
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17 May 2013 11:06 #25202 by Bob Roller
Replied by Bob Roller on topic Valentino
Old cars are like old guns. Many claims made and not much proof shown. A local huckster tried to sell me a Colt Single Action revolver with the claim that it belonged to Jesse James and I asked him which of the three serial numbers on that pistol could be traced to Jesse.It was a pistol made up of three different guns.Is there any record of James Cagney owning the "J"he was photgraphed in. Another case is the "SSJ"belonging to Clark Gable.
Another dumb claim regarding guns was another Colt pistol said to have been the one that was used to kill Jesse James. Actual history was a Smith&Wesson New Model #3. The Colt claimed to be the murder weapon wasn't made until after 1900.
Caveat Emptor or maybe Barnum was right applies every where.

Bob Roller

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  • silverghost
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17 May 2013 07:16 #25201 by silverghost
Replied by silverghost on topic Rudolph Valentino Duesenberg Model "A" ?
The Luray Caverns Car and Carriage Caravan Museum claims on their website that Valentino intentionally ordered this special alligatored cracked paint job to simulate leather~~~

They Do Indeed have a very fine collection of cars & carriages~~~
I urge everyone to see it themselves first hand !
I saw it personally years ago~
It is very nice indeed !

BUT~~~
What do YOU think about this strange alligatored paint claim ?
To me it is simply just very old badly shrunk & cracked paint made worse by long term exposure to engine & radiator heat.

cdn2.vtourist.com/4/3052731-1925 ... _luray.jpg

The Valentino estate's auction catalog & paperwork + his probate records do not show Valentino as ever really owning this car in his lifetime ? !
I, and noted Valentino experts know of existing NO photos of him in, or near this Rolls~Royce auto.
Extant Springfield Mass. Rolls~Royce Of America Factory records cannot confirm his actual ownership !

One has to now ask~~~
What real proof, or documentation, does the Luray Museum have to have been making these strange alligatored paint & , actual Valentino ownership claims, on this fine old auto for many decades ?
I do however hope that they can soon post a forum reply to help Valentino fans, and auto collectors like us, confirm this great auto's true Rudolph Valentino history.
It would be Great to finally hear that the Museum's Valentino ownership claims were indeed true ~~~after All ! ! !

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

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16 May 2013 11:16 #25198 by silverghost
Replied by silverghost on topic Rudolph Valentino Duesenberg Model "A" ?
There is also another weblink with a great profile view of Valentino actually sitting in this car on my office computer.
I will soon post that weblink also !

More photos to come of still a second confirmed Valentino Isotta Fraschini formal towncar~
& also another outside color photo of the never delivered Valentino Isotta~Fraschini roadste/coupe' .
Also the photo with Valentino in coveralls "Working" on his Rear end Diff Gear assembly !
Stay Tuned !
Thank You !
BRAD~

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

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16 May 2013 04:22 #25197 by silverghost
Replied by silverghost on topic Rudolph Valentino Duesenberg Model "A" ?
Back to my original forum question as to Rudolph Valentino possibly owning a Model "A" Duesenberg~

During several days of web searches (as you can see I now have Way too much free time on my hands )
I have found very little , if any real proof, of Valentino ever owning such a model "A" Duesenberg auto.
And~~
Randy Ema, who would really know if Anyone would,~~~ stated a very simiar opinion.

BUT~~~I have also discovered
Valentino did in fact often "borrow" fine autos ,during the early to mid-1920s time period, mostly from various very wealthy elderly female socialite friends whome he taught dancing ie: the tango,; and also from fellow high-profile actors .
In his home state of Calif. he was known to crash & destroy a number of fine fast autos during this time period leading up to his summer 1926 death. It is said he often "borrowed" friend's cars while his were "out-of-action" due to his crashing them.
It was often said that he was Not a drinker~~~
Possibly not~~~but one has to wonder ?
What actually caused the severe stomach lining ulcers & resulting raging septic infection that would eventually kill him ?
As for the explantion often given for his many car crashes & speeding citations~~~
It has been said that his various car crashes were due to his very poor eyesight coupled with his love for speeding in very high powered expensive exotic autos. ~~~
At least that was what the studio publicity agents told the newspapers in the day.

In several car crash cases he, & his passengers, were totally ejected from crashed cars~and luckily all walked away !
This crash ejection scenario history happened yet again shortly before his last ill-fated fatal trip to New York City in Summer 1926 while on a movie publicity tour.
On his many trips to New York City, and other eastern US cities, and while traveling in Europe to buy antiques, tour, and visit family & friends, he would often be seen behind the wheel of many a "borrowed" fine expensive auto.
The fine autos he was always seen in always suited his big-time Movie Star image.

Perhapps that Model "A" Duesenberg that he is often today seen pictured in, or standing near, with 1923 D.C. plates, is such a "borrowed" friend's fine auto ? ? ?

Here is that photo link below of Rudolph Valentino standing next to a Duesenberg Model "A" from 1923 with D.C. plates.
It's a shame we cannot trace auto plates from 1923 ~~~? ? ? Or can we ?

These are the two "Valentino" /Duesenberg "A" photos that started my above post & resulting quest & research ~~~~


lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/npcc/08500/08562v.jpg

lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/npcc/08500/08564v.jpg

ENJOY ! ! !
BRAD~~~

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

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16 May 2013 00:07 #25196 by silverghost
Replied by silverghost on topic Rudolph Valentino Duesenberg Model "A" ?
At the time of his death Valentino's estate was heavily in debt (300,000+) so there is some reasonable doubt that he could have actually have really paid for these fine autos he is said to have ordred in 1925/1926 !

Valentino was one of the biggest box office stars & heart throbs of his day. He was bigger than Elvis in his day !
It may be reasonable to assume that many so-called "Valentino artifacts" sold after his passing were just fakes passed-off as his own personal items.
It was said that fans would come to his Falcon Lair estate after his untimely passing and the estate's gardeners would sell them bogus Valentino artifacts & clothing etc to make themselves some quick fast cash $$$.
Some workers were in fact fired for doing just this.

I suspect that some autos said to have been once owned by Valentino might have been sold in the same bogus manner.
Today these bogus autos still have some sort of questionable Valentino connection that cannot ever be proven; or dis-proven.

If he was seen riding in, or standing near, some fine auto it automatically became His auto~~~It did not matter if he really indeed owned it~~~or Not !

I think if it's a 1925/1926 auto in question , and it was not actually listed in his estate probate records, there is a very high chance that he never actually really ever owned it nor rode in it during his lifetime !
There is a great catalogue that was sold during his estate auction that lists Every item down to the very last simple kitchen knife & fork he actually owned at his passing!
Many items are actually photographed & appear in this estate auction catalogue.
These Valentino estate auction catalogues pop-up from time to time for sale at auction sites on the web to this very day.

As far as the 1925/1926 autos in question themselves~~~
He may have possibly have ordered them; but never actually taken delivery, or actually paid for them, before his passing ?
It's anyone's guess as to some of these so called "Valentino" autos true original ownership however .

Here is a super Fleetwood Coachwork factory history web link.
I have personally been past the Fleetwood Pa Coachwork factory building complex many times over the years~~~
Sadly in Dec. of 2006 most of the factory buildings sadly burned down~~~long since having been abandoned !

This great Fleetwood coachwork link talks about Valentino's Isotta~Fraschini Roadster/Coupe' and the fact that he had actually forgotten he had ordered & had not actually ever payed for it.
So as a result construction of the custom coachwork roadster/coupe' body was stopped awaiting future Valentino payments.
It was finally completed after his death~
It then appeared at the Winter 1927 New York Hotel Auto Salon Show.
There it still remained unsold after the Salon Show.
It was later sold in late 1927, long after his death,~~~then once again went into dealer re-possession again in 1928 by the New York City Isotta~Fraschini dealership because the car's second owner still owed $4000. on it's outstanding sale's bill.
This second owner had given it away as a gift to a woman without fully paying the New York City I~F dealer for the auto !

www.fleetwoodpa.org/fleetwood-body-detailed.htm

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

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  • Chris Summers
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15 May 2013 20:45 #25195 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Rudolph Valentino Duesenberg Model "A" ?
He had two I-Fs we know of, a Town Car and a Roadster (the latter not delivered before he died). Both Fleetwood-bodied and both still exist; there are two similar town cars, both of which claim to be his.

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15 May 2013 14:03 #25194 by Bob Roller
Replied by Bob Roller on topic Valentino and his cars
I was also under the impression that he had an Isotta-Fraschini limo and recall seeing a picture of him exiting the car.

Bob Roller

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15 May 2013 02:05 #25193 by silverghost
Replied by silverghost on topic Rudolph Valentino Duesenberg Model "A" ?
I was told that there is a fellow who posted some time back on the AACA forum who claims to own the old trunk & inside fitted luggage that was once mounted on Valentino's Model "A" Duesenberg~~~

But~~~
Can he actually prove it ? ? ?

If you search Google images under Valentino Duesenberg there is a photo of him near a model "A" with 1923 D.C. plates .
I believe it is on the HAMB forum ?
But Valentino would Not have had D.C. plates on his car !

There is still yet another Isotta~Fraschini formal Towncar, now in Switzerland, that is claimed to have been once owned by Valentino ?
But he was onlyknown to have owned One Isotta~Fraschini formal town car at the time of his passing.

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

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15 May 2013 00:24 #25192 by silverghost
Replied by silverghost on topic Rudolph Valentino Duesenberg Model "A" ?
Thank's Randy, Tom, & Matt ~

Donna Hill does indeed have estate records of his Isotta~Fraschini which he indeed did own at his death .
I forgot to mention this 1924 Isotta~Fraschini formal limo auto.

rudolph-valentino.com/fl-19.htm

He & His his former wife did also own two Voisin autos which he still owned at his untimely passing.
Here is one Voisin photographed at his home.
Note: (The second Voisin also still exists in a collection today).

rudolph-valentino.com/fl-20.htm

The Springfield Rolls~Royce towncar at Luray Caverns Museum, & and the Model "A" Duesenberg he was supposed to have owned both cannot be confirmed in any of his estate's probate, nor auction records.

Rudolpf Valentino always used that famous large Cobra snake head radiator mascot on all his cars.
It was his trademark !
He wore a cobra head pinky ring, and also had cobra door lock castings on doors, among other cobra styled items in his home.
Late in his movie career, I believe 1925, he actually made a movie titled "Cobra"

Both the Isotta~Fraschini's , and the two Voisins still exist in collections today.

Donna said that Valentino was a "spend-thift" that went through tons of cash $$$ !

It is also claimed by Donna & others that Valentino actually worked-on, & took his own cars completely apart; and put them back together again..
There is a famous photo of Valentino in coveralls "working" on a very large rear end diff. gear assembly.
In the photo he seems to be mesuring the top rear gear housing's fill plug with a caliper ??
Why on earth would he measuring that fill plug ?
To Me~This seems more like a posed Hollywood publicity photo shot to me !
I do not know if this mechanical ability was pure Hollywood fiction hype; or if he really Was mehanically inclined ? !
Donna insists that he worked on his own autos.

It would appear that if a Hollywood Star was photographed near , or in, any fine expensive auto it was assumed by the public that it was their own car.
As we all know this was not always the case with Hollywood studio press office publicity photo shots.

I suspect more cars were attributed to Valentino than he ever actually owned.
He seems to be connected to many fine expensive 1926 model year autos.
But in fact that was the year & Aug. Summer he died !

Though he ordered & owned that 1924 Isotta~Fraschini formal limo pictured on Nancy Hill's great Falcon Lair Valentino fan website, & also mentioned in his legal probate papers,~~it is not known IF the later 1926 Isotta~Faschini Conv. Coupe' pictured in the other post at Blackhawk's Paris Retromobile booth was actually delvered before his untimely early death at age 31.
'He may never have actually ridden in it~~~as well as never have actually ridden in that 1925 Rolls~Royce museum towncar ~~~
Who really Knows for sure ? ?

In my late Springfiiield R~R expert friend John Webb DeCampi's book "Rolls~Royce in America" Valentino's name is indeed listed in the back pages of the Springfield R~R records as having indeed ordered a Springfield Rolls~Royce Silver Ghost~~~
This Springfield R~R is also pctured in Arthur Soutters book "The American Rolls~Royce"
But~~~Did he live long enough to actually ever take personal delivery of the R~R in Calif ?
We suspect he did not~~~as it is not listed in the probate, or estate auction , records ? !

It was also noted in his probate estate auction records that he owned a Ford touring car & also a small truck at the time of his death.

There is NO mention of ANY Rolls~Royce auto in his legal probate, or estate auction, records~~~according to Donna Hill & Valentino's surviving legal papers.
Perhapps the Luray Caverns Transportation/ Carriage & Auto Museum can shed more light on this 1925/1926 Springfield R~R Silver Ghost auto's Rudolph Valentino ownership history ? ? ?
Do they have actual documented PROOF that he indeed did once own it ?
Did he in fact order it~~~and Not actually ever pay for it & thus never took delivery ?
He is known to have done this with other autos before !

His legal estate probate & auction records do NOT list this car at the time of his untimely 1926 death !

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

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14 May 2013 22:31 #25191 by landmark

Tom_Parkinson wrote: Hi,

Way back in the dust bins of my memory, I have a recollection of the ACD Museum having displayed a massive Isotta-Fraschini auto. It was stated to have been Valentino's car. I recall that it had a SPLENDID cobra's head radiator ornament.

I would have built a garage to house it, if I could have figured out a way to sneak it out of there!

--Tom


Hello Tom,

with the name Rudolph Valentino I had allways a Isotta-Fraschini CC with white tires in my mind, but I don't know if it really belongs to Mr. Valentino.

Here I found a picture of that car: www.flickriver.com/photos/anhn_hehn/3399112379/

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

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14 May 2013 16:23 #25189 by Tom_Parkinson
Replied by Tom_Parkinson on topic Rudolph Valentino Duesenberg Model "A" ?
Hi,

Way back in the dust bins of my memory, I have a recollection of the ACD Museum having displayed a massive Isotta-Fraschini auto. It was stated to have been Valentino's car. I recall that it had a SPLENDID cobra's head radiator ornament.

I would have built a garage to house it, if I could have figured out a way to sneak it out of there!

--Tom

With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.

Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International

See pix of 1509A here: mbcurl.me/YCSE

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14 May 2013 15:04 #25188 by RandyEma
Brad. There are only rumors and stories existing but no proof. Randy

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14 May 2013 02:40 #25187 by silverghost
Does any hstorian here know if Rudolph Valentino ever actually ever owned a Duesenberg Model "A" ?

A number of online sites claim he did~~~
But~~~
Did He really own a Model "A" ?
Or was he just photographed once next to one, like many other stars ?
There is a famous online photo of Valentino getting out of a model "A" Duesenberg he is said to have owned~
But it has D.C. plates on it !

Donna Hill ~~~author of several books on Valentino~~~
Rudolph Valentino: The Silent Idol ,
&
Falcon Lair (Valentino's Home Estate) website owner

www.rudolph-valentino.com/

Donna Hill author, & Valentino Super Fan, & I have been in contact trying to trace cars that Valentino may have once acually owned in his short lifetime; sadly cut short at age 31 in New York City by a massive internal infection.

Donna has a large collection of Valentino photos & letters, memoribilia, & info. etc.
She also knows some of his present day estate heirs.

There are a number of extant autos today said to have once been owned by the silent screen actor.
He is photographed in front of, & beside, many autos in many existing old photos.
But Did he actually own any, or All, of these autos ?
That is the real question ?

He did own several Voisin autos~~
They are listed in his estate probate legal papers

And Valentino is claimed to have owned~~
A noted Springfield Rolls-Royce towncar long displayed in the Luray Caverns Auto & Transportation Museum .


WE have some question in our minds as to IF he really ever acually owned, or ever took delivery of, this Springfield R~R towncar Caverns museum auto.
It appears to have been built just before, or shortly after Valentino's untimely passing in Aug 1926 at the early age of 31.
The Luray Caverns museum also claims it's now shrunk , aged, alligatored & severely cracked Nitro-cellulose pait job was originally done in this cracked manner~~~to simulate aged leather~
WE all know this is really Not the case~~~It's just old weathered & severely alligatored cracked paint ! ! !

Donna Hill states that there is no mention of a Rolls~Royce, or Duesenberg "A" , in his estate's probate legal papers.

Does Rudolph Valentino's name actually appear in the Duesenberg factory build & Duesenberg "A" ownership records ?.

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

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