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Drive 'em if you got 'em!
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Production lasted from 1931 through 1938 with around 120 examples produced.
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The Hispano-Suiza was built in France and another question is,how many were built from start to finish?
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but the 20mm Hispano-Suiza cannon was loaded to the top and hadn't been used that day in combat and he could have easily "taken the wings off"that heavy bomber but didn't feel like it. This is the mark of a true soldier who was in a position to bring misery to a lot of people but did not take the advantage and one damn sight better man than Luftwaffe Chief Hermann Goering.They also had Rheinmetall-Borsig 20mm cannons that were equal to the HS versions on the Me109.
I met Otto at an International Muzzle Loading Rifle competition in 1980.He also told me he was in the Me262 program,jet interceptors and they had to quit for lack of fuel.
One more piece of history from the "other side"of the most destructive war in history is now gone.
Bob Roller
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I've got the Automobile Quarterly with articles on the Maybach Zeppelin somewhere at home. I know it lists performance figures. I'll dig it out when I'm back home in a couple of weeks.
I've only seen one Maybach in my life, and it was a modern 57. (Parked at the Barboursville Wal-Mart of all places.)
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As for the car the Spanish Swiss (Hispano Suiza) was made in neither Switzerland nor Spain.
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Getting back to my ONE question,how did the big Hispano V12 compare with the Model "J"or SJ in performance? A feeble mind wants to know.
Also,didn't Maybach in Germany build a big,good looking car similar to the "J" and how was it on the performance end?
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www.conceptcarz.com/view/photo/1 ... photo.aspx
Also, didn't the I-F's have a mesh grille guard with a large lightning bolt?
www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... CDEQ9QEwBQ
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You are probably right and they look like they might pre-date a"J"by a couple of years.
I have seen 3 H-S cars. The first at a museum at the caves in Luray,Va. I recall it being a small car with RHD and no way to know about the engine.The second was a big phaeton,definetly a 12 at Hershey in 1989 and the third one was part of the Interstate Battery timed event sometime in the early 90's(maybe).It was a 1926 phaeton with RHD and a 6 cylinder engine and was being driven by the people that bought Hill&Vaughn restorations in California.
We seldom ever worked on pre war European cars back when we were really enjoying the Duesenbergs.I remember a V12 Lagonda that had a distibutor cap spring that had been made of some kind of low carbon steel that lost its "rate" or tension and I made a new one from a piece of thin "spring steel",probably a binder band off of a box. There was also a 1930 Rolls-Royce roadster that had American styling but we did nothing to it outside of oil changes.It belonged to a musician here that was the director of the Huntington Symphony Orchestra.
We sold and serviced MGTD's,Morris,Riley,Hillman and Jaguar XK120 and a Mark "somethingorother"sedan.
The Morris Minor had a battery as big as the engine and NONE of the TD's went 10,000 miles without a major failure.The few Riley's did well and the Jags,well after
all,WAS a Jaguar of that time frame and ran when they wanted to. The motor blocks of the TD's seemed to be soft and had more cylinder bore wear at 10,000 mles than an American car did at 50,000 or more. Don Thompson said they wouldn't make a good skillet and would melt while scrambling eggs.One genius installed a S.C.O.T blower on his TD and the crankshaft broke before he got home with it.
The worst of the MG's that I ever drove was a TC,with RHD and built up pedals. It belonged to "Johnny",the midget that promoted Phillip Morris cigarettes.I serviced it and then got stuck with having to deliver it to a local hotel where he was staying.
The most interesting man I met was driving a Jag sedan that had broken a shock absorber.We had one and while it was being installed by a mechanic,he said his English was Nicht Gut and I spoke enough German to find out that he was on the Bismarck as an engineer and was obviously one of the fortunate ones that got away from it
when it rolled and sank in 15,000+feet of ice water in the Atlantic.He had a scrap book with pictures of him and other crew members on the deck during Hitler's visit to see it after completion.Some adventure and story.
What English he knew came from being in a British POW camp until after Germany capitulated.
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- Steve Derus
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Pretty sure they are both Hissos.
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Those are interesting cars but what are they? I am not real familiar with Euroclassics unless it is a pre war Mercedes.
Also I would like to know if there is any contemporary data on the performance of the Hispano-Suiza V12's.
Any infrmation would be much appreciated,
Bob Roller
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Beans are ready,more later.
Bob
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They only recognize the 8 and 12 cylinder Auburns.
No doubt that the Issota Fraschini deserves it's place on the list. I don't mean to disparage the car in my previous post. I just mean that for the $, I'd prefer 1 Duesy over 2 IF's. I can only drive 1 car at a time.
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I think the term "Full Classics" will define the cars we know to be such in a clear manner. No one can deny,unless they are drunk,blind or stupid that the ACD line of cars are "Full Classics"from the least expensive Auburn 6 to the most spectacular Duesenberg. To me,they are all "drivers" to be enjoyed within all possible limits of safety and reliabilty.
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- Greg Riley
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RandyEma wrote: For those of you that feel that hot rodding a DUESENBERG is a good idea , I WILL WARN YOU THAT THE CYLINDER HEADS WILL NOT TAKE THE INCREASED HEAT AND WILL CRACK , AND I HAVE NOT SEEN A REPAIR HOLD UP YET. RANDY
I agree with Randy that one shouldn't abuse these cars be treating them like a dragster. I have a lot of personal experience with broken and nearly irreplaceable cylinder heads on another marque.
However, I still think they should be driven (yes at speed.) As they frequently become static sculpture in a museum they lose relevance to the younger generation. I'll be telling the story of my personal high-speed Duesenberg ride until my dying breath. That's what will keep the legend alive.
One day (God willing) I will have my Duesenberg, and yes it will get DRIVEN!
Greg Riley
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In the olden days the registration certificate had to be carried in the car. It was printed on a multi-page form, with each page a different color. Blue copy to the state, yellow copy another office and the pink copy to the car owner.
pretty good explanation, huh?
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I'm not sure why those links won't open for you. They are basically arguments between CCCA guys (like me) and the outside world that wants to call their 74 Gremlin with AC a "classic". Somebody comes along every 6 month's and starts a new thread and a new fight about the same thing.
A.J.
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Getting back to "Classics",I don't know of any post WW2 cars with the the POSSIBLE exception of the '46 and '47 Packard Clippers that could be considered as "Classic" as we think of them. Did Cadillac build the "60 Special" after WW2? If so,does it qualify under the strict definitions we use?
The history of the American automobile is a fascination to me and we have an 87 year old friend that is very much into it as well as military history from the past 75 years. America was an industrial colossus that could and did produce anything that was needed and probably many things that weren't. Adolf Hitler, whose "brilliant" idea of attacking Russia stalled out in the blizzards before Moscow, declared war on this colossus four days after 7 December 1941 and found out the hard way that our auto industry was more than adequate to make everything needed and then some for America and our Allies. We had a doctor here that said America did one damn fine job of bombing Berlin into rubble while she was in medical school there in 1944-45.The bombers had many components made by "Detroit" such as fuselage sections by Hudson and Ford's Willow Run plant that turned out one heavy,ready to fly and fight bomber every hour on the hour. Hitler was said to have gone into a crosseyed rage when told of that kind of production from a car maker.
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Bob Roller wrote: The word "classic" is the most abused word in the auto enthusiasts lexicon. A lot of cars that term is applied to are nothing but used cars and clunkers from very recent time frames. My last Packard was a 1951 200 series 4 door sedan that I pulled out of a garage over on Huntington's affluent South Side and after getting it operational,I drove it for 3 years and about 20.000 miles.
I was asked more than once."How does it feel to drive a classic" and my answer was that if it were a Packard that was 17 years older,it be a classic in every definition of the word but a '51 Packard 200 was something Packard should never have built with that once proud name across the hood. The 1951 Ford was a nicer car in all respects.
Bob Roller
I agree but it is a tough battle to fight. We are out numbered about 10,000 to 1. Here are some amusing threads on the subject:
forums.aaca.org/f123/all-cars-25 ... 67027.html
forums.aaca.org/f123/few-short-w ... 72486.html
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Chris Summers refers to the Pinto as a 4 passenger barbecue grill and I think it is another succesful attempt to make a complete car for $20 in parts and labor sort of like the Studebaker Lark of 1960.
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I was asked more than once."How does it feel to drive a classic" and my answer was that if it were a Packard that was 17 years older,it be a classic in every definition of the word but a '51 Packard 200 was something Packard should never have built with that once proud name across the hood. The 1951 Ford was a nicer car in all respects.
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A magnficent classic is a magnficent classic is a magnificent classic, and by any other name it is just as grand. You can put ANY of these cars in MY garage!
Given my druthers though, I choose a Duesey!
--Tom
With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.
Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International
See pix of 1509A here: mbcurl.me/YCSE
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I was going to mention the J12 Hisso (maybe I already did) but have only seen one in person and have never had the chance to ride in one.
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and an I.F? I'd go for a Dusy and a V12 Auburn!
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Also claimed was 104 in second gear which definetly indicated a "long legged"rear axle ratio of maybe 3:1 or maybe they stood on the accelerator in first gear until the engine screamed and then hit second until it screamed again at 100+.
One ad that I liked was from "Vanity Fair" (maybe)in August of 1932 that showed a picture of the new supercharged engine and said."It isn't often you might want to go 104 MPH in second gear,but it's good to know that you can if you have to". In 1932,THAT was one stunning ad.
These figures have long ago been surpassed but in the day when the Model J or SJ was a new car,nothing that could be considered as a "family car" could come near one if the driver was serious about getting away from pursuit. My mother's youngest brother,Chandler Taylor was quite the hot shot with a powerful motorcycle in the 1930's and actually performed in some films as a stunt double and he found out about chasing a Duesenberg when we lived near Palatine,Illinois. He saw me driving a "J",I think it was J528 and asked me if that was a Duesenberg and I said "Yes,it was". He then told me about coming out of Chicago on Route 12,Rand Road on the way to visit us.I was about 3 years old then when this little misfortune over took "Uncle Chan". He was passed by a Duesenberg
and said he was doing about 70 when the car came around him.He decided to get a better look and sprinted up beside the big car and the driver then punched the Duesenberg hard and the race was on with the car pulling away quickly. Uncle Chan said he was behind the car at 108MPH and was being pulled away from when he lost control of the motor cycle and stacked it and him into a plowed field which fortunately was level with the pavement.He survived and had the scars to prove along with a crooked nose that the big bike was no match for the Model J on the open road. Chan may have been "Recreatioanally Inebriated" when he had this episode because my mother said that he would "stay drunk so he wouldn"t have to GET drunk". I don't know but he died at age 66 of a heart attack in 1978 and I think of him frequently.
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When I think of a "pink slip" I think of someone being fired from a job. What were you referring to?
Chris Summers knows my association with ACD cars goes back to my days as a pre-schooler and I will share this with the rest of you now.
We had a neighbor that owned a Duesenberg,a convertible sedan with a divider.I remembered it as a big,black car with all sorts of dials on the dash and my father saying it would really run on the open road.I know we made several trips to Wisconsin in that car from our home West of Chicago (Palatine)on Rand Road. For years,I had no idea what the car was until Don Thompson brought me home in a semi assembled dual cowl phaeton,J487 and then it brought back her memories of Palatine and the Duesenberg. She probably would have preferred to let those memories lay dormant as will be seen.
In 1935,my father bought new Hudson and I have a picture of my mother and me, at the age of five months, laying on a blanket behind it.
The following winter,1936-37 during an effort to start the Hudson,it blew a spark plug out of the head. He repaired that and took the car into Chicago and came back with a Cord convertible that he kept until 1941.After that,he wasn't around very much due to "the other woman".
I didn't see him again until 1953 when I drove J528 home to get a bite to eat and a fast bath prior to trip to Clarksburg to pick up J396 to do some minor repairs on.
He recognized the car because he has seen it in Wisconsin in the late 1940's. He stopped off here in Huntington enroute to a job in the Eastern part of the state and was sitting on the front porch when I pulled in behind a Pontiac with Wisconsin plates parked in front of our house. He asked me if the car was mine and I told him I worked in a shop where we sold and serviced English cars (MG,Morris,Riley and Jaguar)or anything that was out of production or out of business altogether like Pierce and others.
The info on the Hudson morphing into a CORD was given to me by my mother who passed away in 1998 at age 91.
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I wonder if J299 that was used in the race with the Marx Mercedes was equipped with an updraft carburetor or a downdraft. A more interesting race would have been Gary Cooper's SSJ against the SSK. That way the defeat for the SSK would have been even more of an embarrassment.
I have never thought much of any flathead engine regardless of what kind of a glamour queen it was mounted in. I just don't like any of them,period.I have owned several including five Packards,a Chrysler New Yorker and a Plymouth.Zero to road speed timed with an hour glass or in the case of the Chrysler Fluid Drive,with a calender.
One of the worst was the Lincoln Zephyr with a "mighty" 264 CID V12 which was a stretched version of the Ford V8-60. Talk about clunkers,that was the King of them all.
In my opinion,the very best of the inline engines that were used in affordable,good quality cars was the OHV straight eight Nash with nine main bearings and sixteen spark plugs and an overdrive transmission.A friend had one and I considered it a superior car in all respects to my 1937 Cadillac Series 85 V12 sedan that I owned at the time (1957).
Gotta run,my stomach just filed a "non supprt suit against my throat".
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I won't disagree with you regarding a 500k/540k & a Duesenberg in a race. I would take the Duesenberg too. I was just posting some comparables from a car that was also considered very fast for the time. Maybe more apt would be a SS & a Duesenberg but that seemed to get settled at Muroc. Although in that case, it was a long loop run as opposed to a drag and it was an S against a J. Maybe a SS against a SJ would be interesting. I do believe that the S got out to a decent lead at the beginning before faltering. You are correct that the MB blower design prevents you from using it too much or you will blow up the engine.
Btw, I think the SC Cord & the Auburn Speedsters are very speedy for their time. The 4 gears on the Cord and the two speed on the Auburn make up for some of the Duesenberg's great might. I would still take the Duesenberg in a drag.
A.J.
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Getting back to the Mercedes "Mit Kompressor",there was a caution about over using the blower because damage to the engine could occur.
As I said earlier,in the 1950's we did not hesitate to push a Duesenberg to the limit in low and that initial sprint and a fast shift into second went a long way toward the 0-100 time. These cars were not sluggish like the big flathead eights of Packard and Pierce which were about 385 CID or the small displacement OHV Buicks of later years.
I have also wondered how a car with a flathead engine and less than 300 CID could be classified as a "Speedster" like the later Auburn was. The 12 had to be a better performer.It had to be based on appearence,not performance.
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It would be interesting to know what a well turned Super Bearcat would do. I know top seed was supposed to be 110.
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The ones who participated in the "drag race" with such valuable relics deserve a hearty "Thank You!" from all of us and I wish I could have been there but we had contracted to have a lot of work done on our 107 year old house and had to readjust our travel plans to accomodate this work. We had our motel reserved and then the contractor called. Hopefully,next year.
One thing I would hope for is that Duesenberg owners whose cars have not been seen for years or maybe never seen at a major event like Auburn would show up with some of the "obscure"cars.
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Used to do the same thing with a Ferrari F40. You could come back to town a lot faster. About seven Sunday morning you had the road pretty much to yourself.
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