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Radiator electric fan

  • Josh Malks
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27 Nov 2004 14:23 #2520 by Josh Malks
Replied by Josh Malks on topic Radiator electric fan
Doug --- send me a SASE and I'll send you a copy of Al's plans, as published in the ACD Newsletter in the 1950s.

Al's water pump pulley, among other things, was about 20% smaller than the stock one. That makes the pump turn 20% faster, pushes water faster through the core, and may be part of the reason for Ric's avoidance of overheating.

Josh B. Malks
810 2087A
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  • dougklink
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27 Nov 2004 13:13 #2519 by dougklink
Replied by dougklink on topic Goodman setup
What is the Goodman setup for the fan pulley?

Thanks,

Doug Klink
Estes Park, CO

Doug Klink
Estes Park, Colorado

812 S/C Phaeton

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  • Ric Simpson
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18 Nov 2004 15:08 #2494 by Ric Simpson
Replied by Ric Simpson on topic Cooling
Hi! I have had no overheating problems since the rebuild of my s/c engine. I attribute that to all the cleaning that was done during rebuilding. I am also using the Al Goodman pulley modification. It sure makes changing a fan belt easy. I demonstrated this at Auburn one year and I was timed at less than 15 minutes! Am I the only one with the Goodman set-up? Ric.

Ric Simpson,
2001 Niagara Parkway,
Fort Erie, Ontario,
Canada. L2A 5M4

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  • Josh Malks
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04 Nov 2004 02:49 #2447 by Josh Malks
Replied by Josh Malks on topic Radiator electric fan
Some comments on the comments:

- Spacer: this is a useful device, since Auburn pointed out in their engineering notes that a dealer could help an overheating problem by moving the radiator closer to the fan. (The spacer does the same thing --- moves the fan closer to the radiator. The factory cautioned about more noise. Big deal.)

- Shroud: An engineer who is experienced with classic cars pointed out to me that the shroud designed for the Cord has minimal, if any, value. To
work properly the fan blades should be centered horizontally on the edge of the big hole in the shroud. The Cord fan is well inside the shroud, even with the spacer left out.

- Baffles: Stan's suggestion of baffles is a good one. I'll be experimenting with some of these next summer. (From November to April my Cord runs real cool!) I'll be trying the following:

1. A short "shield" on each side of the grille, for about 5" in front of the radiator. Purpose being to keep air that comes in the front of the grille from taking a path of lesser resistance back out the sides, rather than going thru the core. (The factory-added rubber seal over the top of the rad tank to keep air from going over, and to keep air sucked thru by the fan from going back the other way is vital.)

2. A flat baffle on top of the tranny (under the main shift cylinder) to force all air to go thru the core, and not to sneak out under the radiator near the inner u-joints. (Concern here is whether this will raise tranny lube temp.)

Which brings me to Al's comments. Those side shields seem to be one of those serendipitous ideas that could be really valuable. It's counter-intuitive --- seems like we would want to let the air [i:1068vp1l]out[/i:1068vp1l] --- but maybe we've been wrong.

Let's keep trying new things, and report to others thru the website or the Newsletter.

Josh B. Malks
810 2087A
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www.automaven.com

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  • Al Hatch
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04 Nov 2004 00:54 #2445 by Al Hatch
Replied by Al Hatch on topic Radiator electric fan
To all,

Here's my two-cents added to the pile! This summer a seen a member who installed (for lack of a better term) side shields on the fence that ran from the radiator to approximately 12" from the firewall. The intent was to prevent oil from being sprayed onto the front fenders in as much as this was an unrestored Cord. One of the side benefits was that his car ran cooler due to that the air flow was directed towards the back of the engine exiting near the firewall. Another club member picked up onto this and installed a similar panel that slipped over the top edge of the fence and he expierenced the same cooling effect. Both said their cars ran about 10 degrees cooler. This is not to say you should not do all of the other things which is appropriate. This is just another idea that might help our Cords run even cooler.

Al Hatch

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  • Auburn/Cord Parts
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03 Nov 2004 19:19 #2444 by Auburn/Cord Parts
Replied by Auburn/Cord Parts on topic Cord Cooling
The spacer for the fan & shroud really help. Also, acouple of sheet metal baffels to help direct the air up towards the radiator's upper half really help. It's important to make sure that air just doesn't flow over the top of the radiator upper tank. Cord engineers changed the Cord louvers to try and get the air moving up in the air stream to the radiator.

Also a Cord engine that is running lean--vacuum leak at the transmission solenoid, wipers, or dirty main jets in the carb will run hot with a fire truck pumping water thru it. Lastly, no matter the radiator's condition new or used, a flow test tells the truth. We've never used an electric fan----
never will.

CORDially

Stan

Auburn/Cord Parts, Inc. P.O. Box 547 1400 N. "A" St. Wellington, KS 67152 (620) 326-7751 This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

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  • Aris Loumidis
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03 Nov 2004 18:40 #2443 by Aris Loumidis
Replied by Aris Loumidis on topic Radiator electric fan
How fortunate we all are with this forum, especially some of us from far away!

It seems I am about to work more on my 810.When I rebuilt everything, including engine and a new honeycomb radiator from the UK, the temp was quite ok, Since then and after some heavy traffic in and out of the city to attend ceremonies, it has been steadily getting worse. As I have read in this forum, I suspect the head?s and engine?s passages need another clean job ...... :( I wish I had read Josh?s book on water and the 50/50 antifreeze ratio, and the special radiator paint he mentions.

I was ready to attack the weak Kenlowe fan performance with my brother in-law, an electronics expert who bailed me out before on electrical issues. He plans to make me a 6 to 12volt Inverter, so that my 6v fans will work at full rpm. My 8 inch fans now pull only 1,3 amps each and in 12volts they should draw 4,2 amps, so with the inverter?s needs, the total amps should be ok for my standard generator ? I hope. I await from Scott?s cooling fans their specs and cost, to decide what to do.

As I can?t post pictures, I?m emailing to Josh pictures of my pump, fan and pulley, so he may determine if I have the original ones. The pump I got from Stan new, but that was some years ago and I think I might have to look inside it. Maybe I could try a smaller pulley if mine is too big. Also I find the fan sitting too far away and too high compared to the radiator. At at the top, the blades sit behind the top of the tank, instead of the radiator core. I just read that this is normal however.

Another question on the thermostats. What temp do they open at? Should I remove them? I know this will not resolve the issue, but it will buy me some time in traffic before things get too hot.

I also have a heater, with valves that I could shut off, however I think having more water in the system and circulating it through the heater core also helps. Is this so? I could also turn the heater?s fan on, but then I will be the one overheating!!!

On the shrouds I read above, has anyone made any so we can copy them?

Aris Loumidis
Athens, Greece
ACD Life Member
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1936 CORD 810 Phaeton

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  • Josh Malks
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03 Nov 2004 01:49 #2439 by Josh Malks
Replied by Josh Malks on topic Radiator electric fan
Your comments are welcome and to the point, Jim. I will talk to Al about that test program.

As you know, I knew Al Goodman well and bought his Cord when he could no longer maintain it. In addition to the items in his article, Al and I talked specifically about that narrow "neck" in the bottom tank. (It's required by the hump in the radiator crossmember, in turn caused by the shape of the tranny case at that point.) Jim's adding to the crosssection is a very good idea. (Another way to do it if one is recoring anyway, I think, would be to use a 1/2" shorter core and build up the bottom tank walls by that amount. The fan doesn't even reach that lower part of the core anyway.)

All of us will be very interested in your results with more crosssection, Jim.

Josh B. Malks
810 2087A
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03 Nov 2004 00:48 #2438 by
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I'd like to add my 2 cents on this, especially on Josh's last paragraph. At low speed on a hot day I agree that air flow is the biggest problem. At high speed I think the radiator is the problem.

At low speed the radiator core is fairly thick and the fan cann't pull the air through the core. There is a large gap between the radiator and the fan and it's easier for the air to go around the radiator and through the fan. This is where a radiator shroud and a spacer on the fan help.

At high speed I think the problem is water flow through the radiator, more precisely water flow out of the radiator. I had my radiator recored this past spring and when we pulled the bottom tank off I found the tank was 1/2" deep (in the center section) and the tubes from the core stuck down about 1/4". This leaves about 1/4" for the water to flow across the bottom of the radiator tank - this is not enough for good flow. When they recored my radiator I had them build a box on the bottom of the core to give a full 1/2" for the water to flow across the bottom tank. I really don't know how much this helped since we didn't have a hot summer to really test it out and I also put a shroud on at the same time. But the car is running much cooler.

If you read Al Goodman's Odds & Ends from the late 1950's I think he was onto the same thing when he reported about his water pump pully redesign and radiator tank modifications.

One other note for you Josh, you might want to talk to Al Light, he and Bill O. are working on an article for the NL on thermostats. We've been exchanging emails and Al is proposing some interesting testing...maybe we'll have to rig up a Cord and see if we can get some answers.

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  • Josh Malks
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02 Nov 2004 15:06 #2436 by Josh Malks
Replied by Josh Malks on topic Radiator electric fan
Scotts Cooling Fans is a well-known name in the auto fan industry. They carry a full line of 6-volt fans, all sizes. They're in Valencia CA. Phone (800)451-9461, Fax (661)295-9342.

I've used a 12-inch fan as a pusher. It's the largest that will fit, because of the main shift cylinder. (I also had to make the front grille brace removable.) The position of the electric fan was concentric with the mechanical fan --- not a useful location. (I'm not sure how much good it did on the road, but it definitely prevented boiling when stopping the car on a hot day.) What we really want is to cool sections of the core not well covered by the mechanical fan --- i.e., the left and right sides. We also want to put the most cooling effort where the water is hottest --- i.e., the top of the core. So, theoretically at least, the best solution is two fans at the top of the core. Aris' solution is just right. In addition, in the Cord, that's the area that gets the least direct airflow, because of masking by the hood. Two 10" fans are the largest that will fit, because of the hood latch strikers. I plan to try this soon myself, and I think the motors will clear the grille front brace.

My alternator will handle the load easy enough, but check it for third-brush generator cars.

I'm becoming more convinced that a major cause of warm running in the Cord, everything being in good condition, is the built-in problem of airflow thru the radiator. Am working on some ideas. Will report if anything useful turns up.

Josh B. Malks
810 2087A
ACD Club Life Member
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www.automaven.com

Check out CORD COMPLETE at www.cordcomplete.com

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  • MICHAEL S SMITH
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01 Nov 2004 20:55 #2434 by MICHAEL S SMITH
Replied by MICHAEL S SMITH on topic Radiator electric fan
ARIS
I LOOKED HARD AND NEVER FOUND A MODERN FAN AT 6VOLTS. THERE ARE TWO WAYS YOU CAN GO, GET TWO OLD 6V FANS OUT OF OLD HEATERS AND FIGURE OUT A MOUNT, OR ANTIQUE AUTO BATTERY(AVERTISES IN EVERY HEMMINGS LOCATED IN OHIO) SELLS A 6/12 VOLT BATTERY WITH A TAP FOR EACH, WHICH YOU CAN THEN USE FOR 12 VOLT TO YOUR STARTER AND OTHER ACCS. AND 6 VOLT TO EVERYTHING ELSE(SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO CHANGE ALL BULBS ETC.) BUT YOU MUST CHANGE YOUR GENERATOR TO 12 VOLT FOR CHARGING.I HAVEN'T TRIED IT BUT I WAS TOLD IT WOULD WORK, AND IT SEEMS REASONABLE. ANOTHER OPTION WOULD BE TO INSTALL A AUXILLIARY 12VOLT BATTERY AND CHARGE AS NEEDED AT HOME, IF YOU HAVE TO USE AUXILLIARY FAN VERY MUCH AT ALL, YOU PROBABLY SHOULD GO THROUGH YOUR COOLING SYSTEM ANYWAY AS IT SHOULD ONLY BE NEEDED FOR PARADE TYPE DRIVING IN HOT WEATHER.

MICHAEL S SMITH ACD LIFE MEMBER #40
851 auburn phaeton
851 auburn sedan
810 cord westchester
812 cord phaeton(ex Tressler Swiss)
812 cord custom s/c beverly
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  • Aris Loumidis
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01 Nov 2004 20:30 #2433 by Aris Loumidis
Radiator electric fan was created by Aris Loumidis
Question for Josh or anyone else with this experience: Which electric fan is best for our 810?s?

I just took delivery of two 8' inch, Kenlowe fans from England. Unfortunatelly, they turned out to be 12V fans, wich operate under 6volts with hallf the output. Not very effective indeed.

Is there a fan built for 6volts that will fit and do the job on our cars?

Aris

Aris Loumidis
Athens, Greece
ACD Life Member
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1936 CORD 810 Phaeton

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