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Cord V-8 discussion

  • leslie9958
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04 Dec 2003 15:57 #1079 by leslie9958
Replied by leslie9958 on topic The 180-degree manifold.
Jim O'Brian quote:

Could someone please explain an 180 degree intake manifold. I don't understand what the 180-degree refers to regarding an intake manifold.

When Levavasseur produced/invented the first V-8 in about 1902 it had a 180-degree Flat crankshaft identical to a four-cylinder engine but this produces a Secondary Horizontal Shake of a rather large magnitude. This is why Cadillac developed the 90-degree crankshaft that you see so much today.

A regular ?Log? manifold does not fire as a dual four cylinder it fires from one chamber. This is what the 180-degree manifold gets rid of. That is there are small overlapping pulses in the manifold but some very smooth transferring of suction from one cylinder to the other in line of the firing. Using a 720-degree plot/chart of all the cylinders in their order of fire best shows this. One must first remember that a camshaft lobe does not actually open the valves only for 180 degrees but more like 220 degrees. This overlapping of the valves produces a lot of unwanted interference in the manifold unless it is restricted by the use of a manifold that prevents this from occurring. I may sometime in the future have Josh post a diagram of this to show the opening of the exhaust and the intake valve if someone can provide me with the opening and closing of the intake and the exhaust timing. 4 x 220 degrees =880 degrees obviously more than 720 degrees of a complete cylinder cycle in a four-cycle engine. Some overlap is not very bad but if you are talking about 8 cylinders the overlapping is something like four cylinders interfering with each other instead of assisting one another in the intake cycle. This also has a lot to do with sonic effects between the cylinders altho this primarily is between the exhaust and that cylinders intake, but at this point I don?t believe that it is wise to get into.

What a 180-degrree manifold does basically is to divide the 8 cylinders into two four cylinders which fire at 180-degees apart. What Ford did was to make the manifold fire two cylinders on one side pair up with two cylinders on the other side of the block and make it fire as two four cylinder engines as far as the manifold is concerned. 720 degrees divided by 8 cylinders is 90 degrees firing spread for the eight cylinders. A four cylinder engine fires at 720 degrees divided by 4 cylinders is 180-degrees. The sketch I am preparing will explain this to a great degree, but only if you study it and think about it in some depth.
That is why I color-coded it for simplification. I will also try to send this to Josh in the next several days.

When Ford did this men at Cadillac were quite surprised at the simplicity of Fords development and according to Automobile Quarterly were in great admiration of the design. I can?t argue with that! See page # 239 left hand column. Third edition 1979. It was the third big development in the designing of the V-8 engine.

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  • Josh Malks
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03 Dec 2003 23:24 #1072 by Josh Malks
Replied by Josh Malks on topic Cord V-8 discussion
Jim (and everybody): I'm working with M.L. Anderson on diagrams showing the Cord FB firing order and manifold layout. Should be online soon.

Josh B. Malks
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Check out CORD COMPLETE at www.cordcomplete.com

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03 Dec 2003 21:57 #1071 by
Replied by on topic Cord V-8 discussion
Could someone please explain an 180 degree intake manifold. I don't understand what the 180 degree refers to regarding an intake manifold.

Thanks.

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  • Josh Malks
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03 Dec 2003 15:42 #1070 by Josh Malks
Replied by Josh Malks on topic 180 degree manifold
The reference to 180 degrees was to the internal design of the manifold, rather than to its orientation on the engine or in the car.

Josh B. Malks
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Check out CORD COMPLETE at www.cordcomplete.com

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  • balinwire
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03 Dec 2003 12:22 #1069 by balinwire
Replied by balinwire on topic cast iron
The mention of 180% was not the angle of the intake but that the FB engine was originally intended for a rear wheel drive car.
There are many more interesting things about this engine. Do you know of any engines that used an aluminum thermostat housing that worked like a diverter valve switching coolant flow between the wet intake and the block?
Could the compression ratio have been improved as you stated with a more optimum bore to stroke ratio? What is the formula for determining this?
Would there be a benefit to polishing the chambers of the head to improve flow in cast aluminum?

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  • leslie9958
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02 Dec 2003 14:58 #1061 by leslie9958
Replied by leslie9958 on topic Sketchs.
Josh: I am thru with the V-8 FB engine except for the making sure if the FB uses a 180 degree style intake manifold which is a different sketch altogether. I can send the first sketch to you as an attachment but I can't send it to any other way at the present. Can you tell me how this can be done as the attachment part is easy but can you post it somehow? Yours, M.L. Anderson

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01 Dec 2003 22:53 #1056 by leslie9958
Replied by leslie9958 on topic Camshaft
The camshaft would have to be completely different. I am also beginning to suspicion that a lot of engines that are unsupercharged have the supercharged cam in them, at least if the engine were mine that?s what I would do. The firing order of the Fb engine does not allow the engine to have the use of a 180-degree manifold at least not the way I see it.

Edit of the statement about the 180-degree manifold. After playing around for about a whole day I have determined that it is possible but much easier with a FC camshaft.

Why they did this I have no ideas about, as all they had to do was to copy Cadillac 90-degree crankshaft and especially Ford who developed the 180-degree manifold. The third big development of V-8 engines after Levavasseur and Cadillac. M.L. Anderson :)

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  • balinwire
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01 Dec 2003 16:31 #1049 by balinwire
Replied by balinwire on topic timing marks
Interestingly the 810 unsupercharged engine fires one bank and then the other. The supercharged engines changed the firing order. Does the supercharged engine firing still use #4 L for the timing mark?

If the engine was installed 180% rotated as intended by the designers would the timing cylinder be #1 R?

Has the reverse sump been noticed in the diagrams?

Is the way an engine fire its cylinders affect the power ratio? Does this set up different crank stresses? If the firing order were changed would a different cam need to be cut?

I was told the reason inline engines were made into the V style configuration was to shorten crank stresses, as a 12cyl inline would be of great length. It would need a very long hood!

This is a link I found at the 90% thread that might be interesting www.geocities.com/vintagemanuals/

a format like this would be nice for the club newsletter archives also

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  • Josh Malks
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30 Nov 2003 22:53 #1045 by Josh Malks
Replied by Josh Malks on topic Cord V-8 discussion
"Master" timing cylinder is none of the above; it's actually #4 left. On the Cord, that's the cylinder on the driver's-side bank that's closest to the firewall. There is a mark on the flywheel, visible through a hole in the bell housing, that indicates TDC on 4L. (The hole has a pointer built into it for increased accuracy.) Each flywheel tooth is close to 2.5 degrees of rotation, so cylinder 4L should fire two teeth, or 5 degrees, before TDC.

We'd love to see your work when you're done.

Josh B. Malks
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www.automaven.com

Check out CORD COMPLETE at www.cordcomplete.com

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  • leslie9958
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30 Nov 2003 22:37 #1044 by leslie9958
Replied by leslie9958 on topic More questions on the Cord timing.
As unbelievable as it may sound I made the sketch correctly in respect to the cylinder numbering and therefore I do not have to redraw that part of it. Now the only part is how are the engines timed in respect to the flywheel or pulley marks and are there timing numbers on the distributor cap. Is number one cylinder left used as the master timing cylinder as the information in Motor Manual seems to imply it is #4 right. See write up post by McGuire on this information at Atlas F1 # 196 (Upper right corner of his post) same thread as V-8 90 degree. M.L. Anderson :)

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  • Josh Malks
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30 Nov 2003 20:16 #1043 by Josh Malks
Replied by Josh Malks on topic Cord V-8 discussion
Hi, M.L.

Glad to see that you've found the ACD Club's website. Here is some info:

1. From the orientation you describe, that of the driver, the Cord V-8 turns clockwise.

2. Regarding firing order, the factory's cylinder numbers are based on #1 being at the front of the car. In this case, the bell housing end of the engine. L and R, as used in a firing order, are based on the driver's orientation.

Hope this is helpful.

Josh B. Malks
810 2087A
ACD Club Life Member
ACD Newsletter editor
Past president
www.automaven.com

Check out CORD COMPLETE at www.cordcomplete.com

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  • leslie9958
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30 Nov 2003 19:51 #1042 by leslie9958
Replied by leslie9958 on topic Firing order cord FB(?)
In view of the Cord / Lycoming engine of the FA /FB series was only used apparently for only one year I am very interested in the direction that the Cord engine rotates! As I make diagrams of various engines from V-6s, V-8s, V-10s to V-12s engines, accuracy is of vital importance as there is enough bad information on the Internet and I do not wish to add to that type of information.
Firstly we must define the orientation, which in my case is the seated drivers view, his left and right and looking forward using a Clockwise and Counter-Clockwise direction.
If anyone is in possession of this type of information I would appreciate the sharing/knowing of it.
If you wish to see one of the sketches I have made in the past you may go to:

home.earthlink.net/~leslie9958/_ ... RESENT.JPG

If you wish to study the V-8 engine there are some 150 posts on this subject at:

atlasf1.com

The Technical Forum > V-8 90 DEGREE CRANK

Yours; M.L. Anderson :D

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  • Josh Malks
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30 Nov 2003 17:15 #1041 by Josh Malks
Cord V-8 discussion was created by Josh Malks
There's an interesting discussion of the Lycoming/Cord V-8 on a site called the "Atlas F1 Bulletin Board". It's devoted to technical aspects of motor racing and racing history, especially Formula 1.

A "thread" on V-8s led to the aforementioned Cord discussion. These guys appear to be mostly engineering types, and their responses are fun to read. Note how they work their way to mostly correct conclusions just by looking at drawings. I'm gonna chime in soon too.

See it at
forums.atlasf1.com/showthread.ph ... genumber=5

It's somewhere down the page. NOTE: You'll have to make sure that the above URL is all on one line with no spaces for it to work.

Josh B. Malks
810 2087A
ACD Club Life Member
ACD Newsletter editor
Past president
www.automaven.com

Check out CORD COMPLETE at www.cordcomplete.com

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