engine temperature reductions

  • balinwire
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22 Nov 2003 04:01 #1002 by balinwire
balinwire replied the topic: Continuing education
Nonsense, that is the great thing about sharing your many years of experience in these cars. Heck you got to come to a complete stop before you can get in gear! That's exactly what I am doing now, fishing out the scale. That scale is clogging the heads also. Its like the block is slowly melting away!
The inlet tubes on this block seem to be ok. This is the correct engine that came with this car so this block is going to have to stay.
I was looking at the thermostat housings with their split outlets. The thermostat has a ? in. brass neck that supplies the intake manifold has a loose fit. Is there some kind of a rubber seal between the aluminum housing and the brass thermostat?
The flow pattern would allow an unmetered amount of coolant into the manifold where it divides and would not allow full flow back to the radiator.
If it still heats to a boil after reassembly I will entertain the thought of deleting the thermostats and using wood dowels with a small hole to meter the flow to the intake manifold and run it with out thermostats if there is no success with them.
That is an interesting fact the Cord can run without a fan or a water pump, thermo-siphoning is a good reason to keep the flow unrestricted.
The engine would create heat and the warm coolant would rise flowing into the top of the radiator core where it would be cooled by the air flowing thru the radiator. It would then sink as its specific gravity increases and then return to the lower block to be reheated, keeping the siphoning process going.
Just think of how few cars go 30-40 years before restarting! :)<!-- s:o --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_surprised.gif" alt=":o" title="Surprised" /><!-- s:o --> <!-- s:o --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_surprised.gif" alt=":o" title="Surprised" /><!-- s:o -->

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  • Dave Henderson
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23 Nov 2003 03:24 #1004 by Dave Henderson
Dave Henderson replied the topic:
Couple of thoughts....could it be that particles of block scale recontaminate the radiator each time you retest to see if overheating occurs?
Several brands of thermostats that are almost the same do have slight differences in the length of the cylindrical protrusion and the shape of the shoulder on it. I looked at three makes, each a bit different. Possibly an o ring could help you attain a better seal, but as a disclaimer, no one ever suggested that to me.
The intake manifold needs heated water in order to prevent throttle plate freeze-up and stalling. I don't have an open waterpump handy, but I believe the flow from the front outlet pipe (yours does have this, doesn't it?) of the manifold recirculates with water in the water pump coming from the radiator and goes back into the heads. Now, assuming that the water got cooled down some while in the manifold after leaving the heads I'd surmise that this this recirculation wouldn't much effect temperature. Just maybe this area is not where the problem is.

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23 Nov 2003 18:00 #1010 by balinwire
balinwire replied the topic: intake recirculation
This is a copy of the flow chart I got in an earlier reply from from Jim,

The water flow into the top of the radiator throught the two inlets. Then down and out the one outlet on the bottom(there has been debate over the years that the single outlet causes flow problems in the radiator). From the bottom of the radiator up to the water pump. Make sure you have a spring in this lower radiator hose to prevent the water pump from collasping the hose which will cause overheating. The water pump has two outlets on the bottom of the pump that go into the front of the block - one on either side. These feed distribution tubes inside the engine block that distribute the water up near the valve area. These are brass tubes (I think) that have a tendency to corrode and the distribution holes block up (another area to check). The water then flows from the block, through numerous holes into the head. As the water flows through the head to the top the head increases in thickness to allow for better cooling in the upper area of the head where the temperature is higher. At the top of the head is the thermostat and then the water flows back to the top of the radiator (when the thermostats are open). At the thermostat housing the water also splits off and some goes through the intake manifold and back to the water pump. This is to prewarm the gas/air mixture before it enters the cylinders.

Now to add some controversy, some people have plugged the lines to the intake manifold to keep the water out of this area. Their reasoning has been three fold. First - if the intake manifold leaks (and there are two(?) pipe plugs on the bottom) the water going directly into the crankcase. Second - the cars are run in the summer so there is no reason to warm the gas/air mixture. Three - this maintains a lower temperature in the intake manifold which in turn means less heat transfer to the carb and less of a chance of vapor locking.

I'm not saying I recommend this, but I haven't heard of any problems eliminating this fluid flow either. Anyone else have any comments on this?

----From this chart it seems to recirculate from the thermostat housings into the intake manifold and the flow would travel out of the intake manifold front and back into the input side of the water pump.
That would mean a large volume of coolant would recirculate without being cooled. I have two different thermostats and they are slightly different in configuration, different manufactures. I am lucky to have any as they were missing when I started.
When hot, they open, they should separate the flow between the head and intake of the radiator at the thermostat housing with a positive seal to keep the coolant from mixing, I guess they built in a little redundancy at that point.
Where the heater output is cast into the pump housing the housing also seems to recirculate hot fluid. The wet intake would be a good idea in cold climates and possibly help with carburetor bowl percolation and vapor lock in warm climates.
It may have worked if it had flowed back thru the radiator for cooling but I don?t want to second-guess Lycoming design department.
The block has a lot less sediment than when I started and other than removing the drive and boiling the block I will have to hope the sediment will pass thru the block drains when flushed.
The screen idea in the top hoses is a good idea but I did not know of this. The sediment returned to the radiator and I had to remove it-replace and flush all the debris out and now it flows well. The recore has larger passages than the original honeycomb design.
There must not have been any rubber seal in the thermostat housing. I wish these thermostats fit better and were more readily available.
I still do not have the heads replaced as yet. I am now looking for a car trailer. The mini meet is in 6 months and I do not think the grand old lady will be ready for the journey.

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24 Nov 2003 00:18 #1011 by balinwire
balinwire replied the topic: staying the course
You know the cars a problem but I have to listen to my daughters wrestling coach, they sent them home with this flier and I have always remembered these words,


MENTAL TOUGHNESS
Nobody ever said it would be easy, so don’t expect it to be
No one is immune from everyday problems.

Sometimes you have to perform at your best
when you’re feeling your worst.
Block the hurt, the pain, the sickness out of
your head for the short time you must perform.
Shape up, get it together because excuses don’t count.
Nobody cares if you are hurt or sick; you either
do the job or you don’t.

There are times when you might rather be
elsewhere, but face up to the challenge at hand.
No matter what has happened, you must win the mental battle.
You must force yourself to remain confident,
enthusiastic, and positive. You must force yourself to
work harder even when you are sick, hurt, sad, or troubled.
That is mental toughness!

Life is easy when the going is good.

Mental toughness comes into play when the going
gets bad. Never let your opponent know your weakness,
because then he can take advantage of it. The
fighter automatically goes for the cut eye, the bloody nose.
Mental toughness is also the ability to keep after a goal,
to look a year or two ahead and keep going full
throttle after that goal, even in the face of adversity.

One of the oldest and most common locker room signs is this:
“When the going gets tough, the tough get going!”
Believe it!!!

this saying could apply to the old car hobby also :rolleyes:

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  • Dave Henderson
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24 Nov 2003 16:17 #1015 by Dave Henderson
Dave Henderson replied the topic:
I had the advantage of the block being out of the car and a steam cleaner to blast scale out. You're fighting gravity, plus there are more nooks and crannies than in the much advertised brand of english muffins. Taking an hour or so to rig up a pair of screens for the upper ends of the hoses would likely pay off and reveal how things are. You could just use common window screen formed in a cone to give maximum area. After about 5 miles (or boilover if it occurs first) open up and see what you've caught.
Might be appropriate to back flusd the rad, or remove it and flush it upside down. All that loose stuff has been goin somewhere.
Keep on persevering!

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24 Nov 2003 20:31 #1016 by balinwire
balinwire replied the topic: fighting gravity
All is not lost yet, Dave, <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> they say a Cord sedan will yield 7-8 pounds of lead on scrapping!
<!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->

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