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Interchange info on Lockheed Wheel Cylinder kits?
- Maurice Randall
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The question of the long shoe -vs- the short shoe is bugging me.
I just found a picture of an assembled backing plate with shoes mounted and you're right, the Cord should have the long shoe towards the front and the short one towards the rear.
This is the first time this particular Cord has had any brake work done since 1958. Whoever worked on the brakes prior to my Dad owning the car apparently installed the 1-1/4 inch wheel cylinders along with installing the brake shoes in reverse order.
Anyway, the car stops quite nicely like this so it will probably be this way once again for a long time to come. I don't plan to take it apart again since it works OK. I just took it for a test ride and gentle stops work good as well as hard stops.
Anyway, this Cord is just about ready for Auburn. About the only thing left to do is to fix a small exhaust leak that makes it sound cheap, clean up the upholstery and vacuum the carpet.
-Maurice
== 2006 will be the "50th" AUBURN Reunion ==
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- Tom_Parkinson
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Thank you for your comments.
The question of the long shoe -vs- the short shoe is bugging me.
I am advised that on the Lockheed anchor point system, the primary shoe-in front--should be the longer one. This is presumably because the front show is getting the "jamming "effect when the brakes are applied, and the rear (secondary) shoe is getting the "glide" effect.
Bendix brakes are different. With no anchor point in the Bendix system, the pair of shoes squishes and rotates slightly around when the brakes are applied, and it is the rear show that gets the greater "jamming" energy effect. On the Bendix system the front shoe is the smaller and the rear shoe is the longer.
I have a photocopy of a detailed drawing on the Lockheed set up--email if you'd like it.
Parts are available at reasonable prices to make your cylinders standard. Email and I'll get you sources.
Tom
With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.
Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International
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- Maurice Randall
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Anyway, I've found that the right rear has a 1-3/8 inch piston on the front half of the cylinder and 1 inch of the rear half. The left rear has a 1-1/4 inch piston on the front half and 1 inch on the rear half.
So, this car has 1-3/8 on the LF and RR and 1-1/4 on the RF and LR. Odd, but it stops fine with this combination. I'm not going to change it.
By the way, the primary shoe (front shoe) has the shorter lining while the secondary shoe (rear shoe) has the longer lining. This is true on ANY car I have ever personally worked on including this Cord.
-Maurice
== 2006 will be the "50th" AUBURN Reunion ==
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- Jack Richard
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- Maurice Randall
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I found it odd too that the front wheel cylinders were different from side to side, but I left it that way.
I'll be rebuilding the rear wheel cylinders sometime in the next couple of weeks due to the right rear leaking a little bit. I'll find out at that time if somebody mistakenly swapped the front and rear cylinders on the one side.
I'll post here what I find out.
-Maurice
== 2006 will be the "50th" AUBURN Reunion ==
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- Tom_Parkinson
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I was interested in your comment about two different size wheel cylinders on the front of your Cord. I cannot imagine that any manufacturer could or would have any axle's wheel cylinders intentionally unequal. Information I received today from a club member suggests that the 1-1/4" x 1" step cylinder you found on the front of your Cord is possibly a rear wheel cylinder that got transplanted.
Do the rears have a similar disparity? If so, it's like having two pairs of odd colored socks. Do a little swapping to straighten out the arrangement.
---Tom
With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.
Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International
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- Maurice Randall
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The driver's side had a 1 inch cup and a 1-3/8 cup. The passenger's side had a 1 inch cup and a 1-1/4 inch cup.
I found this odd, but came to the conclusion that the engineers felt they needed a little more stopping power on the left-front wheel than what was needed on the right-front. The car doesn't pull to either side when stopping. Maybe with a stepped 1 inch and 1-3/8 cylinders on both front wheels, the car might tend to pull to the right a little.
This was either done at the factory for the above reason, or someone has changed the RF wheel cylinder prior to 1958 when my Dad bought the car. I tend to believe it was a factory setup since the car only had 34,000 miles in 1958 and spent most of those miles doing a 10-mile round trip almost every day on a highway in Pennsylvania during the first 13 years of its life.
-Maurice
== 2006 will be the "50th" AUBURN Reunion ==
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- Tom_Parkinson
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I went to my local handy dandy Auto-Zone and got Joe--the best counterman in the Midwest--to pull out their super secret obsolete parts books. Turns out that A-Z doesn't have '41 Ford cylinders available, but they have post-war 40's cylinders available by pre-paid order, four days waiting time. The book says they are straight-through 1-3/8" bore, but it lies--they are in fact stepped cylinders, 1-3/8 at one end only. I haven't gotten any further than to see that they a) fit the backing plates, and b) they indisputably define which plate is left side and whch is right side. I expect to have to modify the pistons on the old South Bend Lathe, but that's not a big deal.
I did notice that the angle of the attachment of the hydraulic hose is aimed back--to the rear of the car--rather than forward. Since I didn't disassemble this car, I have no idea how that'll work out when the things are finally installed. At any rate, stainless-flex brake fluid hoses of any length can quickly be made locally at reasonable cost, so that's not going to be an issue. (Famous last words...)
Next question is, just what defines a primary shoe and a secondary shoe? My books seem to indicate without ever flat-out stating it, that the primary shoe is actually the one with the shorter lining on it. Anyone know for sure?
---Tom
With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.
Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International
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- Tom_Parkinson
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The history of my Cord before 1950 is a mystery to me, and there is certainly NO guarantee that the parts in it are factory original. The parts I have are quite different from the ones you describe.
I haven't looked at the rear cylinders yet. However, the fronts are different than what you have described. The fronts are 1-3/8" straight-through bore, not stepped. The rubber boots were crumble-apart brittle when I disassembled the cylinders, but they clearly had rectangular holes to fit the business ends of the brake shoes. The nodes on the shoes are in direct contact with the pistons: there are no round rods from the pistons to the shoes such as I am used to seeing in my Bendix brake-equipped 40 LaSalle and 37 Buick, and our more modern vehicles here at the shop.
I have the pistons and they cleaned up fine. I had to use the shop press to push them out of the cylinders. I found that 1-3/8 cups, springs, and not-quite-right boots were available through Auto Zone, listed under a 1940-42 White truck. The boots in the kits I got have round holes, not rectangular.
The flex hose in these cylinders is attached perpendicular to the cylinder. It is not at an angle.
The bleeder screws do not have Zerk-like knobs on the end. The 5/16" hex head of the bleeder looks like a bolt head with a hole in it. I will replace them with new ones to which a bleeding hose can be attached. The bleeders actually came out without breaking off! I first cleaned up the base of the bleeders in the blast cabinet, sprayed the with penetrating fluid (some gorp called Master Blaster, or similar), had a cup of coffee while waiting, and tried bumping them loose with a socket wrench. They unscrewed right out. I was quite happily surprised--saved me some machine time.
I have noted your comments about using stainless rather than brass for sleeves. I'll see what tubing is available through McMaster-Carr, my "Hardware of the Internet."
Thank you again for the responses. If you have any further information on my straight-through cylinders, please let me know.
----Tom
With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.
Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International
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- Josh Malks
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- Jack Richard
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- Tom_Parkinson
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Speaking of Lockheed brakes, does anyone have interchange info and availability on front and rear wheel cylinder kits? Stan offers the cups, but I need the cups, the springs, and the outer caps, ie, the whole kit.
I have the pistons, which cleaned up nicely. I'll put brass sleeves into the cylinders.
Thanks in advance,
----Tom
With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.
Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International
See pix of 1509A here: mbcurl.me/YCSE
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