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Interchange info on Lockheed Wheel Cylinder kits?

  • Maurice Randall
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24 Aug 2005 01:52 #3589 by Maurice Randall
Replied by Maurice Randall on topic Interchange info on Lockheed Wheel Cylinder kits?
Hi Tom,

The question of the long shoe -vs- the short shoe is bugging me.


I just found a picture of an assembled backing plate with shoes mounted and you're right, the Cord should have the long shoe towards the front and the short one towards the rear.

This is the first time this particular Cord has had any brake work done since 1958. Whoever worked on the brakes prior to my Dad owning the car apparently installed the 1-1/4 inch wheel cylinders along with installing the brake shoes in reverse order.

Anyway, the car stops quite nicely like this so it will probably be this way once again for a long time to come. I don't plan to take it apart again since it works OK. I just took it for a test ride and gentle stops work good as well as hard stops.

Anyway, this Cord is just about ready for Auburn. About the only thing left to do is to fix a small exhaust leak that makes it sound cheap, clean up the upholstery and vacuum the carpet.

-Maurice

== 2006 will be the "50th" AUBURN Reunion ==

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  • Tom_Parkinson
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24 Aug 2005 00:43 #3588 by Tom_Parkinson
Replied by Tom_Parkinson on topic Interchange info on Lockheed Wheel Cylinder kits?
Hi, Maurice,

Thank you for your comments.

The question of the long shoe -vs- the short shoe is bugging me.

I am advised that on the Lockheed anchor point system, the primary shoe-in front--should be the longer one. This is presumably because the front show is getting the "jamming "effect when the brakes are applied, and the rear (secondary) shoe is getting the "glide" effect.

Bendix brakes are different. With no anchor point in the Bendix system, the pair of shoes squishes and rotates slightly around when the brakes are applied, and it is the rear show that gets the greater "jamming" energy effect. On the Bendix system the front shoe is the smaller and the rear shoe is the longer.

I have a photocopy of a detailed drawing on the Lockheed set up--email if you'd like it.

Parts are available at reasonable prices to make your cylinders standard. Email and I'll get you sources.

Tom

With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.

Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International

See pix of 1509A here: mbcurl.me/YCSE

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  • Maurice Randall
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23 Aug 2005 22:20 #3584 by Maurice Randall
Replied by Maurice Randall on topic Interchange info on Lockheed Wheel Cylinder kits?
I'm in the process of rebuilding the rear wheel cylinders on this Cord now. As someone earlier suggested that the front and rear cylinders may have been swapped on one side of the car, I found this is not true. You can't swap front and rear.

Anyway, I've found that the right rear has a 1-3/8 inch piston on the front half of the cylinder and 1 inch of the rear half. The left rear has a 1-1/4 inch piston on the front half and 1 inch on the rear half.

So, this car has 1-3/8 on the LF and RR and 1-1/4 on the RF and LR. Odd, but it stops fine with this combination. I'm not going to change it.

By the way, the primary shoe (front shoe) has the shorter lining while the secondary shoe (rear shoe) has the longer lining. This is true on ANY car I have ever personally worked on including this Cord.

-Maurice

== 2006 will be the "50th" AUBURN Reunion ==

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  • Jack Richard
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28 Jul 2005 01:52 #3417 by Jack Richard
Replied by Jack Richard on topic Wagner Cord brakes
From my research and restoring my '36 Westchester, the Wagner-Lockheed brakes originally had wheel cylinders with 1-1/4" bores on the primary (front, longer lining) shoes, and 1" bores on the rear (secondry, shorter lining) shoes. The front brake shoe is "self engergizing" when stopping forward motion, and the rear brake shoe is "self energizing"when stopping reverse motion. After early production showed the brakes required more effort than desired to stop, the factory started using brake cylinders (on the front wheels at least) with 1-3/8" diameter bores for the primary shoes. This was to increase braking pressure. My car had 1-3/8" bores on the primary shoes on both front and rear brakes, but supposedly the fractory still used 1-1/4' bores on the rear cylinders. The front brake cylinders have and inlet which is canted toward the rear, so the the flex brake line tilts to the rear and avoids interfering with the suspension. The rear cylinders have and inlet which is 90 deg. to the backing plate, the rigid brake line goes straight in to the cylinder. A front cylinder could probably be adapted to the rear brakes if the brake line was bent so it could attach. The new Ford cylinders have the angled inlet like the front brakes, and have rear bores of 1" and front bores of 1-3/8'. The ends of the brake shoes press directly on the pistons, no rods in between. The ford shoes were different dimension and the pistons of the ford cylinders are larger and have the rubbers attached, will not work with stock Cord Wagner shoes. I replace the Ford cylinders and rubbers with those from my Cord cylinders and they work fine. The Wagner brakes are different from those of the Bendix design, but if properly restored will stop the car just fine. Good luck!
Jack

Jack Richard, D.D.S. This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

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  • Maurice Randall
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27 Jul 2005 00:32 #3408 by Maurice Randall
Replied by Maurice Randall on topic Interchange info on Lockheed Wheel Cylinder kits?
Hi Tom,

I found it odd too that the front wheel cylinders were different from side to side, but I left it that way.

I'll be rebuilding the rear wheel cylinders sometime in the next couple of weeks due to the right rear leaking a little bit. I'll find out at that time if somebody mistakenly swapped the front and rear cylinders on the one side.

I'll post here what I find out.

-Maurice

== 2006 will be the "50th" AUBURN Reunion ==

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  • Tom_Parkinson
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27 Jul 2005 00:23 #3407 by Tom_Parkinson
Replied by Tom_Parkinson on topic Interchange info on Lockheed Wheel Cylinder kits?
Hi Maurice--thanks for your reply.

I was interested in your comment about two different size wheel cylinders on the front of your Cord. I cannot imagine that any manufacturer could or would have any axle's wheel cylinders intentionally unequal. Information I received today from a club member suggests that the 1-1/4" x 1" step cylinder you found on the front of your Cord is possibly a rear wheel cylinder that got transplanted.

Do the rears have a similar disparity? If so, it's like having two pairs of odd colored socks. Do a little swapping to straighten out the arrangement.

---Tom

With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.

Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International

See pix of 1509A here: mbcurl.me/YCSE

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  • Maurice Randall
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26 Jul 2005 00:37 #3400 by Maurice Randall
Replied by Maurice Randall on topic Interchange info on Lockheed Wheel Cylinder kits?
When I rebuilt the front wheel cylinders on my Dad's 36 Beverly a couple of weeks ago, the original wheel cylinders were stepped. However, here's what I discovered.

The driver's side had a 1 inch cup and a 1-3/8 cup. The passenger's side had a 1 inch cup and a 1-1/4 inch cup.

I found this odd, but came to the conclusion that the engineers felt they needed a little more stopping power on the left-front wheel than what was needed on the right-front. The car doesn't pull to either side when stopping. Maybe with a stepped 1 inch and 1-3/8 cylinders on both front wheels, the car might tend to pull to the right a little.

This was either done at the factory for the above reason, or someone has changed the RF wheel cylinder prior to 1958 when my Dad bought the car. I tend to believe it was a factory setup since the car only had 34,000 miles in 1958 and spent most of those miles doing a 10-mile round trip almost every day on a highway in Pennsylvania during the first 13 years of its life.

-Maurice

== 2006 will be the "50th" AUBURN Reunion ==

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  • Tom_Parkinson
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26 Jul 2005 00:18 #3399 by Tom_Parkinson
Replied by Tom_Parkinson on topic Interchange info on Lockheed Wheel Cylinder kits?
Curiouser and curiouser...

I went to my local handy dandy Auto-Zone and got Joe--the best counterman in the Midwest--to pull out their super secret obsolete parts books. Turns out that A-Z doesn't have '41 Ford cylinders available, but they have post-war 40's cylinders available by pre-paid order, four days waiting time. The book says they are straight-through 1-3/8" bore, but it lies--they are in fact stepped cylinders, 1-3/8 at one end only. I haven't gotten any further than to see that they a) fit the backing plates, and b) they indisputably define which plate is left side and whch is right side. I expect to have to modify the pistons on the old South Bend Lathe, but that's not a big deal.

I did notice that the angle of the attachment of the hydraulic hose is aimed back--to the rear of the car--rather than forward. Since I didn't disassemble this car, I have no idea how that'll work out when the things are finally installed. At any rate, stainless-flex brake fluid hoses of any length can quickly be made locally at reasonable cost, so that's not going to be an issue. (Famous last words...)

Next question is, just what defines a primary shoe and a secondary shoe? My books seem to indicate without ever flat-out stating it, that the primary shoe is actually the one with the shorter lining on it. Anyone know for sure?

---Tom

With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.

Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International

See pix of 1509A here: mbcurl.me/YCSE

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  • Tom_Parkinson
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01 Jul 2005 18:03 #3306 by Tom_Parkinson
Replied by Tom_Parkinson on topic Interchange info on Lockheed Wheel Cylinder kits?
Thank you Jack and Josh for your responses !!

The history of my Cord before 1950 is a mystery to me, and there is certainly NO guarantee that the parts in it are factory original. The parts I have are quite different from the ones you describe.

I haven't looked at the rear cylinders yet. However, the fronts are different than what you have described. The fronts are 1-3/8" straight-through bore, not stepped. The rubber boots were crumble-apart brittle when I disassembled the cylinders, but they clearly had rectangular holes to fit the business ends of the brake shoes. The nodes on the shoes are in direct contact with the pistons: there are no round rods from the pistons to the shoes such as I am used to seeing in my Bendix brake-equipped 40 LaSalle and 37 Buick, and our more modern vehicles here at the shop.

I have the pistons and they cleaned up fine. I had to use the shop press to push them out of the cylinders. I found that 1-3/8 cups, springs, and not-quite-right boots were available through Auto Zone, listed under a 1940-42 White truck. The boots in the kits I got have round holes, not rectangular.

The flex hose in these cylinders is attached perpendicular to the cylinder. It is not at an angle.

The bleeder screws do not have Zerk-like knobs on the end. The 5/16" hex head of the bleeder looks like a bolt head with a hole in it. I will replace them with new ones to which a bleeding hose can be attached. The bleeders actually came out without breaking off! I first cleaned up the base of the bleeders in the blast cabinet, sprayed the with penetrating fluid (some gorp called Master Blaster, or similar), had a cup of coffee while waiting, and tried bumping them loose with a socket wrench. They unscrewed right out. I was quite happily surprised--saved me some machine time.

I have noted your comments about using stainless rather than brass for sleeves. I'll see what tubing is available through McMaster-Carr, my "Hardware of the Internet."

Thank you again for the responses. If you have any further information on my straight-through cylinders, please let me know.

----Tom

With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.

Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International

See pix of 1509A here: mbcurl.me/YCSE

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  • Josh Malks
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30 Jun 2005 16:03 #3301 by Josh Malks
Replied by Josh Malks on topic Interchange info on Lockheed Wheel Cylinder kits?
Jack is right about sleeving with stainless. You can find this service in Hemmings. As an engineer friend once teached me "brass should only be used for ornamental purposes" :-)

Josh B. Malks
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www.automaven.com

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  • Jack Richard
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30 Jun 2005 15:17 #3300 by Jack Richard
Replied by Jack Richard on topic Wagner Lockheed brake cylinders
The front Wagner Lockheed wheel cylinders are the same as the '41 Ford wheel cylinders, except the Ford cylinders use diffferent pistons and rubber boots, which did not work on my car. I replaced them with the Cord original pistons and rubber boots. The rear wheel cylinders are not the same, the fitting for the brake line is straight out the casting, not at an angle like the fronts. It might be possible to modify the rear brake lines to work with these angled cylinders, but I choose to sleeve the original castings with stainless steel sleeves. I had some problems with leakage between the sleeve and the cast iron body, be sure and use a good sealant (rtv silicone) when the sleeves are pressed in. Both the front and rear cylinders are mounted so the larger bore is toward the front of the car and operates the primary (longer) brake shoe. I was able to find replacement cups and springs at my local brake supply store, used the original outer rubber seals.

Jack Richard, D.D.S. This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

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  • Tom_Parkinson
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20 Jun 2005 18:27 #3250 by Tom_Parkinson
Still working on the Lockheed brakes....

Speaking of Lockheed brakes, does anyone have interchange info and availability on front and rear wheel cylinder kits? Stan offers the cups, but I need the cups, the springs, and the outer caps, ie, the whole kit.

I have the pistons, which cleaned up nicely. I'll put brass sleeves into the cylinders.

Thanks in advance,


----Tom

With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.

Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International

See pix of 1509A here: mbcurl.me/YCSE

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