1931 8-98 Cooling Update and still an issue

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13 Aug 2016 04:15 #31520 by curtiss
curtiss replied the topic: Re: 1931 8-98 Cooling Update and still an issue
Thanks for the reply, here are a few answers:

Any chance the lower radiator hose is collapsing
- I do not think this is a problem, the lower hose is actually a modern hose with a spring.

Is the water pump impeller any good or slipping on the shaft ?
- I am not sure yet, have not had the pump apart yet, I think that is this weekend's project.

Does it have a decent water distribution tube in the block (I assume a 1931 has one)?
- Most of these cars do not have this as they rusted out and there are no replacements. I heard there were some drawings to build one, I may do that at some point.

Timing ?
- I really thought timing was the issue because it originally had an incorrect Chrysler distributor. I found an original and added a pertronix. I timed it by vacuum so I think I am pretty close. Can these be timed with a light, the book makes it sound as you have to set it by points opening?

Are you running it too lean ?
- This is one a friend of mine mentioned to me today, I have not messed with the carb yet and not quite sure how to adjust the updraft properly, might need some guidance on that :)

I am a big fan of drilling an 1/8 or so hole in a thermostat (eliminates air pockets and ...)
- I drilled three 1/8 inch holes :)

Could it just be a really tight engine and need some careful driving around the block for 1000 miles ?
- It has been sittign for a long time and I have been a little scared to drive it this warm, I think we might try to take it for a run this weekend at 30 to 40 mph to see if air flow cools it down.

Driving it through the neighborhood it did something strange, going up hill under load it cooled down 5 to 19 degrees but when I went down hill in car to slow it down it warmed back up. I have never had a car do that.

Heat riser valve in manifold is closed or someone did their own thing building exhaust or full of nuts or .... via mice ?
- This could be an issue, the adjusting arm is broken off and I think it is locked in the on position but I was not sure if that would make the car run hotter or just heat the carb up a lot.

One more thing, I noticed the fan is a about 2 inches away from the radiator while on our speedster it is like 3/4 of an inch away from the radiator. I am not sure how far the fan should be way from the radiator.

Saw the video you posted of driving the car.
- Cool, I am hoping to fire up our speedster tomorrow if all goes as planned.

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13 Aug 2016 16:23 #31522 by johnmereness
johnmereness replied the topic: Re: 1931 8-98 Cooling Update and still an issue
Is the water pump impeller any good or slipping on the shaft ?
- I am not sure yet, have not had the pump apart yet, I think that is this weekend's project.

Dig into the water pump - a new gasket, some sealer, lots of patience, and .... and perhaps time to look - at least you will know what you have.

Does it have a decent water distribution tube in the block (I assume a 1931 has one)?
- Most of these cars do not have this as they rusted out and there are no replacements. I heard there were some drawings to build one, I may do that at some point.

Stan Gilliland may have them or call the shop over in Ohio that does all the 31-32 engines - repros have to be around - if it is rotted out you will NEVER get the car to run the way it should (and I am sure people will tell you otherwise, but they made them a certain way for certain reasons). I do not recall when we did the 31 Phaeton (Black and Silver) if you can see the tube via removal of the water jacket cover on the side of the block or how to best inspect.

Timing ?
- I really thought timing was the issue because it originally had an incorrect Chrysler distributor. I found an original and added a pertronix. I timed it by vacuum so I think I am pretty close. Can these be timed with a light, the book makes it sound as you have to set it by points opening?

I am an advocate of points - the whole world ran on points for 70 plus years. You will have to have correct timing. When we bought the 35 Sedan we thought it a bit of a slug (perhaps a hill climbing Columbia given car was from Mount Adams in Cincinnati originally). And, then new owner was saying it developed a knock. The knock turned out to be a worn and mis-adjusted timing chain slapping on the case. And, further investigation revealed the timing gears were mis-aligned (I am not sure we ever timed it with a light, but its first major trip was driving it 700 miles back and forth to Auburn for ACD Festival).

Are you running it too lean ?
- This is one a friend of mine mentioned to me today, I have not messed with the carb yet and not quite sure how to adjust the updraft properly, might need some guidance on that :)

Rich will not hurt it much - you may foul plugs, but you will not be driving it enough to cause much other damage of diluting oil on cylinder walls. Lean on the other hand will get you into more serious problems much more quickly.


I am a big fan of drilling an 1/8 or so hole in a thermostat (eliminates air pockets and ...)
- I drilled three 1/8 inch holes :)

One hole would have been fine, but I doubt three would get you into trouble. A thermostat is often also intended to be a flow restrictor - water must stay in the radiator for a certain period of time to cool properly. Many people think when a car overheats they should take the thermostat out - they generally get themselves into worse trouble by doing so. You were correct in blocking open the radiator shutters - not a fan of shutters being closed for anything other than winning awards in CCCA. I would think the 170 Thermostat fine as well.

Could it just be a really tight engine and need some careful driving around the block for 1000 miles ?
- It has been sitting for a long time and I have been a little scared to drive it this warm, I think we might try to take it for a run this weekend at 30 to 40 mph to see if air flow cools it down.

Tight as in a close tolerance on clearances during rebuild and has not been broken in. When you get a little more comfortable, start driving it around the block over and over for many an evening - Dad and I usually do up and down drive for hours, then some miles around the block, then we progress to neighborhood, then a State Route, and then a highway.

Driving it through the neighborhood it did something strange, going up hill under load it cooled down 5 to 19 degrees but when I went down hill in car to slow it down it warmed back up. I have never had a car do that.

Hum

Heat riser valve in manifold is closed or someone did their own thing building exhaust or full of nuts or .... via mice ?
- This could be an issue, the adjusting arm is broken off and I think it is locked in the on position but I was not sure if that would make the car run hotter or just heat the carb up a lot.

You do not need to be pre-heating or warming anything up - the gas has chaned in formula from when car was new and ..... - make sure it is open. It actually is a restrictor in the exhaust and if closed it back-pressures engine and causes car to "warm up" - just like a thermostat in the radiator it is a thermostat for the exhaust system.

One more thing, I noticed the fan is a about 2 inches away from the radiator while on our speedster it is like 3/4 of an inch away from the radiator. I am not sure how far the fan should be way from the radiator.

I cannot imagine why there would be a difference between your two cars - the engine mounts in frame a certain way, as does radiator. Perhaps they did a mid-year change or .... Does it have the correct fan on it (and not just a close look alike) ? I run a flex fan on the 1935 Phaeton all be it I would never advise such until you get the true problem straightened out - I have it on as I do parades and it likes to go down the road - not crawl (it also traveled 40K miles prior to the installation - ie I was comfortable with car prior to fans installation).

The rest sounds good, you have been asking all the right questions and are on the right track to eventually getting the answer. And, worth getting to the answer - an Auburn tends to be the better of the bunch for 30's road cars.

JMM

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14 Aug 2016 17:34 #31528 by Tom_Parkinson
Tom_Parkinson replied the topic: Re: 1931 8-98 Cooling Update and still an issue
Hi,

Is the water pump impeller any good or slipping on the shaft ?


I know from personal experience that this situation can happen. At first I thought maybe the impeller was installed backwards--it wasn't.

Turned out that the impeller on the water pump of my Lasalle was slipping on the shaft. I could turn it by hand. Boy howdy did that car overheat!

My cure was to pull off the impeller, clean and de-slime the shaft and the impeller. and reinstall the impeller in red Lok-tite. Lok-tite red is just shy of a weld: that impeller is NEVER going to slip on the shaft.

--Tom

With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.

Editor-in-Chief, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International

See pix of 1509A here: http://mbcurl.me/YCSE

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14 Aug 2016 20:58 #31530 by 1748 S
1748 S replied the topic: Re: 1931 8-98 Cooling Update and still an issue
Loctite is a great product. Many different types too from the blue. Easily removable to the red Stud and bearing mount 272. Many of the red types require heat to soften them so you can remove a fastener. The 272 needs 300 degrees or you will twist off an 11/16 stud fastener.

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15 Aug 2016 01:57 #31532 by curtiss
curtiss replied the topic: Re: 1931 8-98 Cooling Update and still an issue
Thanks for all of the answers and ideas. I did not get time to work on it this weekend becasue I was working to get our 33 Speedster back on the ground and running.

I just finished running the 33 (no baffle) at idle for 20 mins and could not get it to go above 158. That was running straight water in it testing for leaks. We will take it for a test drive this week to see how it holds up.

I think my next plan of attack is to drain the 31 cooling system back down again and take the water pump apart to see if something is wrong. That will be this weeks project after work :)

Looks like the 33 comes out of sick bay and the 31 goes into sick bay :)

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15 Aug 2016 02:19 #31533 by mikespeed35
mikespeed35 replied the topic: Re: 1931 8-98 Cooling Update and still an issue
Tom, I have never encountered a water pump impeller that was not pinned?
Cordially Mike

Mike Huffman

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